Men and women

40 Responses to “Men and women”

1. Mary says:
   

   I know what you mean about splitting up a church by sex, and I’m not very keen on books that split by gender, such as the Bloke’s bible or the Bible for Women.

   The men’s group in our church has been very successful, in more ways than one, and has enabled non-churchgoing men with churchgoing partners to become more integrated into the church community, with many becoming Christians because of it (including my husband). The group also does “manly” type things like running the BBQ at church events.

   HOWEVER, I’ve always wanted to be part of that group, rather than the ladies’ group, which has all but disbanded anyway – honestly, I don’t think we gelled well as a group, despite the efforts of many. I possibly could have attended the men’s group, one lady does, but my husband went and we couldn’t both go because of childcare costs. However it would have been frowned upon.

   January 13th, 2011 at 10:18 am
2. Mary says:
   

   PS, like the cartoon, sums it up very well LOL!

   January 13th, 2011 at 10:18 am
3. Sara from the library says:
   

   And of course all ladies drink from wine glass shaped glasses and all men drink from pint glass shaped glasses.

   I am rubbish in womens’ groups because I have so little in common with grown up women with families (and I led a group for a year) so I think this cartoon makes me laugh.

   January 13th, 2011 at 11:24 am
4. Dave says:
   

   Mary – Thank you. I would be all in favour of a men’s group designed specifically for men and women.

   Sara – Are there really women who drink out of pint-shaped glasses? Good gracious. As for your second comment – ditto.

   January 13th, 2011 at 12:17 pm
5. Dave says:
   

   Dear everyone,

   Apologies for the ads this post is attracting. I’m not really endorsing ’100s genuine Moldovan women’ etc.

   January 13th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
6. Liz from the sewing room says:
   

   The ad on mine was for hair removal for women in Liverpool. Which is kind of appropriate to what I was going to post, since I have a moustache which many teenage boys would envy, and have it “threaded off” every few weeks in Selfridges.

   Our church has a Men’s Breakfast, and every few months they meet up with lots of other Men’s Breakfasts and have some really good speakers. There was a speaker I really wanted to hear and the men from my church said I couldnt become an honorary man for the occasion.

   Had I thought of this in advance, I could have let the moustache grow maybe passed as a man.

   January 13th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
7. Dave says:
   

   Liz,

   I would like to encourage a campaign of ecclesiastical disobedience as far as turning up to forbidden men’s groups is concerned.

   If anyone has attempted to turn up at a group in this way and been forcably turned away I would like to hear about it.

   January 13th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
8. Sara from the library says:
   

   I like the idea of mass disobedience. Can I have a Poirot style ‘tache for disguise? Or does having a pint-glass shaped glass count?

   This is what I thought about it a couple of years ago (audacious plug for my own blog here)
   http://runninglife.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/men-do-breakfast-and-ladies-lunch/

   January 13th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
9. Margaret says:
   

   in my experience men’s breakfasts get the full cooked works and ladies groups get croissants and fruit.

   I vote for the cooked breakfast!

   January 13th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
10. Dave says:
    

    I think an additional strand of mass ecclesiatical disobedience is called for.

    Ladies who are asked to prepare a men’s breakfast should serve only stewed prunes. This is the only way that this madness will end.

    January 13th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
11. LizC says:
    

    In my church ladies days begin with breakfast – served by men – consisting of both the full English and the continental/healthy option. That is the way breakfast should be (especially the serving men part).

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
12. Myn says:
    

    I think a large supply of big bushy fake beards may help. And no one is to stone ANYONE until I say so, even if they do say Jehov-aaaawk!

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
13. Sam says:
    

    Dave, I’m afraid I have recently witnessed an appeal for ‘ladies to help cook for the mens’ breakfast’.

    My existing weekend commitment excuses me from having to make any actual choice over attending the event.

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
14. Matt says:
    

    My experience does not match with Margaret’s last post sadly. I have found that the weekly men’s prayer breakfast at my church does not involve any breakfast. The ladies does. This has left me in the invidious position of wanting to attend the ladies breakfast.

    My fear is, I will be shunned from both groups. Shunned by the ladies for being a man, and shunned by the men for attempting to be a lady (or at least, attempting to eat breakfast with them).

    I have decided to take comfort in the belief that the men’s group is ticking one more spiritual discipline box than the ladies, and as such, is more holy.

    Albeit, holy & hungry.

    Mass ecclesiatical disobedience sounds a good idea Dave!

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
15. Phil Creighton says:
    

    The Baptist Men’s Movement organise a Bigger Breakfast every year – this year is September 24. Maybe this would be the perfect opportunity to your church to get involved. And for the ladies to sneak in with those false taches…

    It’s not a Baptist only event, any church can take part. And it’s free.

    (and we’ve got a Curry night on Tuesday, Feb 1 if you want to start the ball rolling now – biggerbalti.co.uk )

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
16. Dave says:
    

    Liz – but wouldn’t it be even better if there were men sitting down to eat the breakfast with you?

    Myn – welcome to the campaign.

    Sam – the right thing for you to do here is to hand-modify the notice sheets (under the cover of darkness if required) so as to include ‘men / women’ under both the cooking and the eating references. I know someone who has a fibre-tipped pen ideally suited to this task.

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
17. Phill says:
    

    It seems to me that part of the problem with men’s groups and women’s groups is that some people find them useful and some people don’t. (More earth-shattering revelations coming later.)

    My proposal is this:

    Each men’s event / women’s event shall from hereon in be separated into three areas: a women’s area, a men’s area, and a ‘mixed’ area (not for people who aren’t sure, just an area where people can mix. In case you were wondering.)

    This will simplify catering arrangements and enable conversations to be had with your preferred gender, or not, as preference dictates.

    If there is a speaker, technology could be used to broadcast a live feed of it through to the different areas.

    I think this is a goer, you know. I’ll suggest it at the next men’s only PCC meeting.

    January 13th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
18. chris clark says:
    

    I think we are going ignore Paul on differences between gender we ought to have slaves and masters and Jews and gentile groups as well..updated of course to be bosses and workers and English and foreign

    January 13th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
19. Squirrel says:
    

    being on cartoonchurch is an education per se in churchlife! I did not even know there existed such things as men’s groups and ladies’ groups; are there then no gentlemen’s groups? no women’s groups? And what do gentlemen adn women do for breakfast and or lunch? Do they get a sermon for the men’s groups and a different one for the ladies’groups?

    Grada, from the Netherlands, rather bewildered but glad to be educated

    January 13th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
20. Peter says:
    

    I have to say, within the context of our church, I’m very happy with Men’s and Ladies’ groups.

    This is in a large part because I at least have something in common with the men, being one. Whereas the ladies (of which I am not one) are nearly all old enough to be my mother. Although when the Vicar leaves I will become the youngest member of the men’s group, by I believe at least a decade!

    January 13th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
21. Dave says:
    

    Phill’s idea is a work of genius. Although one has to ask whether men would be allowed into the women’s-only are and vice versa. I’m rather a fundamentalist when it comes to mingling.

    Matt – should your men’s breakfast be reported to the authorities for not providing breakfast?

    Phil – do the Baptist men’s breakfasts welcome women? I would welcome an official statement.

    Chris – good points.

    January 13th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
22. Phil Creighton says:
    

    Dave,
    It’s really up to the invididual events and organisers. At my last brekkie, my daughter came along! We also welcome women to our annual conference should they wish to come along.

    The advantage of men’s/ladies’ groups is that you can tailor messages and discuss issues that you might not be comfortable doing so in front of the other sex.

    January 13th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
23. Phill says:
    

    Dave, this is indeed a good question. I am also a fundamentalist with regards to mingling (and indeed minging, as I originally read that), and I would suggest mingling be prohibited except for the mixed area.

    January 13th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
24. Nicola says:
    

    I always want to be in the men’s group because they laugh and have curry nights. There seems to be too much weeping at women’s groups… and the many boxes of tissues dotted around tell you what is expected of you.

    January 13th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
25. LizC says:
    

    Dave, I’d always be happy to eat breakfast with men. I’m torn on the issue of gender divides, I enjoy spending time with women and talking about women’s things – but the men go off and do paintballing and eat curry. (We get curry, but it’s usually of a more refined Thai green style, as befits our delicate nature…)

    January 13th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
26. Kathryn says:
    

    I think there are situations where, because of someone’s experience with people of the opposite gender, it can be easier to talk to people of the same gender about things. There are subjects I discuss more openly with women than with men, either because I think women are more likely to have had experiences that are similar, or because discussing such things candidly with men has, in the past, made them very uncomfortable.

    That said, I don’t really do the whole “feminine mystique” thing and I mostly talk to people I trust, rather than people of a certain gender, if I’m struggling with something. I do worry that groups specifically for men or specifically for women might exacerbate the existing culture of gender stereotyping. I also think that such groups can be extremely unwelcoming to people who do not experience gender as binary.

    If our church has either a men’s group or a ladies’ group, I don’t know anything about it. We had a house group for a while, but I couldn’t go because I wasn’t a house. And anyway, it was in the evening, when I was at work.

    January 13th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
27. fibrefairy says:
    

    I drink pints, eat curry and prefer Full English when it comes to breakfast. I don’t go to our Mens’ Group though cos my husband runs it…( there’s nothing wrong with him or the way it’s run, just I’d cramp his style and have to find a babysitter..)

    the women tend to want to go to the cinema, or make cards… I’d rather go & watch the rugby.

    I am really a girl though, skirts, make-up and 4 children to prove it

    January 13th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
28. Questioner says:
    

    In some respects I’m quite blokish (I have many of the physical attributes, as well as a bloke’s name which is a bit of a giveaway), although some of my friends say I’m a bit short for a bloke. However, I also like what might be considered as ‘girls’ things (and also do cry quite a lot). I don’t wear women’s clothes, but enjoy shopping with my female friends for them (and spending their money).

    The problem is with many of these groups is the continued self-perpetuation of gender stereotypes within them (ref; the advert for women to help cook for a men’s breakfast) as opposed to the actual existence of groups in the first place.

    I only wish there were more women that drunk pints and enjoyed watching (mainly @ the moment) men play with funny shaped balls……

    January 13th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
29. JW says:
    

    We never really manage the classification of ‘ladies’ breakfast, as our Saturday mornings were usually by a group of lovely folk still sporting the remnants last night’s mascara and eating sausage butties. Needless to say they started around 11am.

    January 13th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
30. Farli says:
    

    I have never really enjoyed meeting with groups of women, but would always prefer to go to the pub for a pint with the blokes.

    I am still not sure whether this has become more or less acceptable now that I wear a dog collar*. It is certainly less frequent now babysitters are required before we can both go to the pub.

    Dividing for breakfast is a moot point in my current Churches. There is no breakfast for either gender, except on Ascension Day when there are Bacon sandwiches or Croissants for all prepared to climb the tower to get them.

    For any women who are being excluded from men’s breakfasts, perhaps you should look and see if there is a knitted beards workshop again at Greenbelt next year. It was good fun last time, although I mislaid my beard.

    *because I am ordained, not for any other reason.

    January 13th, 2011 at 5:34 pm
31. fibrefairy says:
    

    @Questioner… some of us pint drinking girlies have played with funny shaped balls of our own!

    January 13th, 2011 at 5:42 pm
32. Dave says:
    

    Thanks for all this great discussion – it has been a great boost to my morale. Clearly one of the contentious issues of our day.

    I do understand the ‘sometimes it is easier to talk to someone of your own gender about certain things’ argument. And by not going to these kinds of things perhaps I am missing out.

    But on the other hand the population could be divided along all sorts of other lines. So, when it comes to talking about things there are people you’d want to talk to about things, and people you wouldn’t. The tactful and those lacking tact. The sensitive and the insensitive, etc.

    I may plan a regular programme of breakfasts for the tactless. Feedback after each would be encouraged.

    January 13th, 2011 at 5:42 pm
33. Kathryn says:
    

    Perhaps I should clarify — while I sometimes find it easier to talk to someone of my own gender about certain things, I have never actually been to a ladies’ group or women’s group or people-who-are-in-touch-with-their-”feminine”-side group or what have you. I haven’t found it necessary. I think the last time I was involved in something where boys/men/gentlemen/blokes/etc weren’t allowed was when I was about ten years old and a Girl Guide. From what I recall of that, I don’t think I’m missing much. I understand that ladies’ breakfast groups don’t even issue badges. I later tried to join a girls’ basketball team at school but despite my substantial height I wasn’t coordinated enough to actually get the ball in the basket often enough for them to include me.

    I might fit in quite well at breakfast for the tactless, but I suspect I would fit in even better at breakfast for people who take things far too seriously. I find it quite difficult to leave the house without eating breakfast first, so the serious people would have to come to mine instead, and first I’d have to ask my housemates if that’s okay. Maybe lunch would be easier.

    The difficulty of breakfast (or lunch, for that matter) for “people you wouldn’t talk to about things” is obvious, of course. At least it would be quiet.

    January 13th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
34. Cathryn says:
    

    There is a tradition at our church of the blokes meeting up in our local on a Monday night.
    It’s quite often after a church meeting, and so an opportunity to bitch/vent/discuss important ecclesiastical issues and I used to go from time to time and keep my (non-Christian) husband company.
    That is until it was strongly suggested to me that I stop going, as I might be inhibiting the men.
    So now my husband doesn’t go either

    January 13th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
35. Sara from the library says:
    

    Oooh breakfast for the tactless. Count me in. And any pint drinking (not at breakfast, I am too old for that now). I’m loving the discussion for discovering a few more women who would prefer to be in the pub talking rubbish with the blokes.
    You know what else is stereotypes? All those bloomin’ God books for women that are pastel pink. They may contain the most illuminating thoughts, perhaps even on the best knitted beard/ tache combo for subversive infiltration of men’s brekkies; but I’ll never know, because I have an aversion to pastel pink books. Gah.

    January 13th, 2011 at 10:50 pm
36. Dave says:
    

    Kathryn – Yes, when I quoted you I was referring to the general idea, but you put it nice and succinctly.

    Cathryn – Your story made me sad and mildly cross and I happen to know I was not alone in thinking that. Whoever did the strong suggesting needs to be talked to.

    Sara – I too am pleased with this discussion for various reasons. I’m now considering running a series of men’s breakfasts, aimed 50% at women, to be held at around 6pm in London pubs. Mostly beer would be served. As an aside, my next book was to be pastel pink, but I have been led to reconsider.

    January 14th, 2011 at 12:10 am
37. Margaret says:
    

    I’m with Sara – a breakfast for the tactless would be right for me although I’m more of a wine drinker than a beer drinker ( unless it is Belgium fruit beer).

    And on the pink fluffy books for Christian women – along with the bible notes for women, magazines for women, seminars for women. Mewh!

    Now there are more women in ministry don’t you think we can overcome a few stereotypes?

    January 14th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
38. Mine’s a pint, and turn the rugby on will you? « Strands of Life says:
    

    [...] was dealt with  humorously on Dave
    Walkers Cartoon Church blog where some important points were made
    in the comments.   The Mens’ group thing is a
    [...]

    January 14th, 2011 at 8:05 pm
39. Soph says:
    

    Its been suggested that wearing my false moustache could
    lead to a church disciplinary. I’m not sure what this is but I’m
    quite keen to find out. I suspect I would be prayed for by the
    entire congrefation! Curious to see if it would get me on the mens
    paintball day though…

    January 16th, 2011 at 11:06 am
40. Mary says:
    

    Soph, a church disciplinary may involve the following http://www.cilice.co.uk, so I should be careful if I were you…

    I am also a fan of paintballing, perhaps we could have a paintballing day for the tactless.

    I have a very sore tongue from biting back tactless comments and would welcome the opportunity to rid myself of the need to remain silent.

    I was extremely narked once when, at a PCC meeting, there was an appeal for men to help put up the marquee. I volunteered myself, and it was minuted that an appeal had been made, and subsequently some men had come forward, but my offer was ignored!

    PS I am also a pint drinker, particularly at beerfests…

    January 17th, 2011 at 12:32 pm