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Christian Marketplace has an article on the former SPCK/ SSG bookshops that I don’t think I’ve linked to: Robust response from Brewer re SSG Bookshops turmoil
The blogger at Long withdrawing roar is shocked by a visit to a former SPCK shop: Flee from the wrath to come
Phil Groom addresses the ‘Why shouldn’t I buy my books from Amazon?’ question: Christian Bookshops — who needs them?
This is a single Cartoon Blog entry, posted by Dave
on Tuesday, May 20th, 2008 at 10:16 am.
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For me, the issue is that too many Christian bookshops are full of the same dull selection of books. Bookshops should win hands down against any online bookshop for this reason alone - most people don’t know what they are looking for and want to browse and handle a book.
But too often Christian bookshops take the easy way out. How can I order something when I don’t know what I’m looking for? Why should I when I can play the same game of pot-luck on Amazon for less money?
There are precious few that hold anything beyond the usual - the outstanding example for me being the bookshop at Buckfast Abbey, which has an unbelievable stock of books.
As far as I am aware Mark Brewer’s quote in Christian Marketplace was used because it is they first time he has said anything to them. I’m sure they would have quoted him before if he had actually said something but knowing what the usual response is I expect all that was got was silence.
I agree with Long withdrawing roar. I think I know what shop he (I think Lwr is a he) went to because of 1) It is still open and 2) The mananger is still there but I could be wrong so wont go public with my guess. But yes it is tragic.
Joe, having worked in a bookshop I can both agree and disagree with your comment. Bookshops as with any retailer can only sell what they are supplied and what sells. If bookshops are full of the same dull stuff it is because the publishers, suppliers and bookshops have been sent the message by the buying public that this is what they want to see. If you want to see bookshops hold a wider range of stuff support them. Buckfast can hold such a wide range because they do not have the financial constraints a high street retailer such as Wesley Owen, CLC or St Pauls Multimedia has. A specialist book that a shop has to have on its bookshelf is space wasted. But often to get these books is just as economical and quick to order through a bookshop as it is via the Web. I have ordered stuff from America via my bookshop which was quicker ti come than if I had ordered it via Amazon.
This is why the closure of SPCK is such a shame. Between them Wesley Owen, CLC, SPCK, St Pauls and the small independents could carry a wide variety of stock and challenge between them the internet. But this is now being lost thanks to SSG.
It seems to me that the SPCK/SSG saga has shown that there is precious little market for selling books on the high street. IIRC, SPCK bookshops were loss making before the Brewers came along.
I can’t imagine buying a book from a Christian bookshop. I can barely cope with being in the same room as all that tat.
Hey Joe - that makes me kinda sad. Actually there’s a huge market for Christian books on the high street… and in the back streets… maybe every street corner, if we have the will to make it happen.
Across the UK there are more than 600 Christian bookshops: SPCK, though I don’t like having to say it, were only ever a relatively small part of the picture. What SPCK did, though, was take Christian bookshops beyond the evangelical pop-christianity stuff that tends to dominate places like Wesley-Owen, and the Brewers trying to narrow things down is a real killer in that respect.
So I say to you what I’ve said to many others: if you don’t like what you find in your local Christian bookshop, don’t just walk away — talk to us. That’s the reason I’ve set up the Christian Bookshops Blog.
We’re in this together: help us to become the best that we can be, and in turn we’ll help you to become the best that you can be by supplying you with the resources you need for your Christian life.
Phil - I’m not clear why we should have the will to make it happen. From where I’m sitting, there is nothing attractive about a Christian bookshop unless they also serve tea and cakes.
Let me try a few examples. A vicar friend of mine ordered several hundred new pew bibles from the local Christian bookshop. The bookshop gave him a 10% volume discount. Within five minutes, I was able to find the same thing online at half the price. Now, I’m not the greatest businessman, and I understand that shops need to make money. But given that they’re ordering a bulk amount of bibles which are going straight to the customer without even sitting in the store, it strikes me that someone is being taken advantage of.
There may be 600 bookshops, but on the whole they sell the same stuff. Is there any real difference between St Andrews, Wesley Owen and STL? Because if there is, I’ve never noticed it.
Phelim - the thing I like about Buckfast is that although the selection is clearly slanted towards Roman Catholicism (which isn’t my bag at all), it contained an amazing collection of books about addiction, 12 steps and other things that I’ve never seen in a Christian bookshop before or since. What Christian bookshops in general could learn is to be distinctive and interesting. If it is bland, few are going to bother.
Joe - The SPCK Bookshop I worked in had 12 step books and equivalents, and I know of idependents that try and do the same. The reason many of the SPCK shops were loosing money is because of a variety of issues such as many were in grade 1or two listed building, and people in charge at head office not being booksellers so there was a lack of investment. As to the huge discount you managed to find your church leader - your bookshops hands were probably tied by the publisher. It is interesting to note that if you look at the finances of Amazon and others most are not profit making - they just have the force to force publishers to give them bigger margines so the publishers make less money. Buying online does all parts of the booktrade out of money.
But by going to the internet people are forcing publishers and sellers to go for the high selling books (think Da Vinci Code and Harry Potter). In my twenty years in the Christian booktrade I have seen the number of books published go up but the quality of writing go more towards the “best seller” style of grammar. The internet, supermarkets and those who by there have played a part in the demise of the Christian bookshop.
Phelim - I don’t know the margins on a Christian book, but I’m guessing it is considerably more than 10%. As it happens, my vicar friend bought them from the local shop. I thought it was daylight robbery.
And you can’t blame punters for going elsewhere for a better service, better prices and a better selection.
My understanding is that Amazon pay publishers less than other bookshops because they are big and the publishers have no choice but to agree to their terms. If this is the case by buying from Amazon you are penalising publishers and ultimately authors.
Can anyone in the know confirm or deny this? I’ve tried searching but to no avail.
Yes, Amazon, the large secular bookshop chains and the supermarkets receive considerably higher margins from publishers than independent and Christian bookshops, and can afford to “loss lead”. Margins on books are considerably lower than on greetings cards and gifts, for example. Last year when the last Harry Potter book was published, smaller, independent bookshops bought their copies from local supermarkets as these prices were lower than the price they would have to pay to the publisher.
Are you thinking of this recent furore, Dave?
Fantastic question. Seems to smack of the whole “sacred/secular” divide.
I’d like to wade in here if I may, I will at the start come clean, and say I work for Wesley Owen.
I believe that Joe’s position that there is “precious little market for selling books on the high street” is untenable, for several reasons.
The use of the internet for bookselling is here to stay and booksellers have to adapt to that. However the are two key areas where the dominance of internet booksellers will eventually cause books to stop being published, and limit choice for everyone. Firstly their business model is that they list all the titles available, but they don’t hold stock as bookshops do. This will lead to publishers deciding not publish books as they can’t get enough demand to warrant it, and even the advent of print on demand will not keep a broad range of book publishing, maybe the end point could be no books only blogs?!
The second area is browsing, the internet is superb if you know exactly which book you are looking for, however, if you enjoy reading and wish to find something different, then a bookshop provides the reader, with the best opportunity to find something unique. All the “search inside” and “if you like this you’ll like this” feature still don’t give the same breadth as a shop.
Now I fully understand the world has changed and web provides a wonderful new way of buying books, but I believe the bookshop still has an important role to play .
Joe, I understand that some types of bookshops and their products aren’t to your taste, one man’s tat is another person’s inspiration,we have to accept we’re all different! I see this everyday. I do hope you find everything you want online. But that doesn’t mean that bricks and mortar bookshops aren’t a part of our future.
For example, I know that WO will order hundreds of copies of Mr Walker’s forthcoming book, send it out and promote it, Amazon will wait for customer orders and then order only that number, at a higher discount, I may add! And without the publisher expecting good bookshop orders, I would go as far as suggesting this book may not have even published at all.
I would like to respond to other comments about bookshops stock selection and price, but for a first post this is long enough.
Regarding Joe’s comment no. 6 - the Norwich SPCK/SSG bookshop DOES serve tea and cakes. And lunches. And very good coffee. It was a thriving place to feed the mind, body and spirit for Christians new and mature, for enquirers and for a passing trade of tourists and pilgrims. It was a vibrant meeting place and a place to browse in an inspiring building. I will leave my comment there as I do not wish to elaborate on my use of the past tense.
Iago - we are all different, but this is my point - the bookshops are all the same.
Ann - plenty of christian bookshops serve coffee. This is the only reason I would enter one.
On the margin side many independent bookshops did not sell the Harry Potter book when it came out last year - cover price £16.99 - because of Asda and other supermarkets selling it for less than half price. Even Waterstones and Smiths lost money on each copy of Harry Potter sold.
Joe, depending on the supplier of the Bible the margins range from 45% (for Good News) to 10%. On NIVs the margin is either 25% or 35% depending on the size. As the bookshop doesn’t have the muscle of Amazon they are unable to negotiate larger margins. So from a £19.99 Bible the bookshop makes somewhere between just under £5 to just under £7. The 10% discount comes from their profit, they still have to pay the publisher the full price they would normally pay.
If you remember that a Christian bookshop is a ministry to get the Christian message into the community and to support the local Church to reach their community. By buying Bibles from the internet you do not support your local Christian community or the publishers. Most Christian bookshops are either not for profit business or charities. They are making enough money to pay bills, wages and no more. Christian bookshops should know their community and be able to serve this in a way the interent can not.
Also, if you think Christian bookshops are all the same do something. Get your books from the bookshop rather than the internet. The bookshops are responding to market forces - just like a supermarket. If you don’t want a one size fits all type bookshop the answer is to not use the internet and to support the Christian ministry/mission that is your local Christian bookshop.
But Joe’s issue is a serious, if bookshops and publishers are to compete with the web and serve their community effectively how can we do this?
Oh yes, and many writers make NO MONEY from the books sold because the profits are so small.
Yeah Phelim - listen, I work in wholesaling. If a customer (particularly one I want to keep and/or want to tell other people about my service) asks for 100 units which I do not have to store, or display etc, I would be mad to offer a 10% discount. Yes, reducing the price means less profit. But it is also less work and less overheads. You get money in hand, even if it is only £1 per book instead of £5 and you haven’t had to do anything more than you normally do.
In this case, the shop was lucky that the clergy are not business minded. If it had been down to me, I would have negotiated a better price or gone elsewhere.
Anyway, I don’t want to go overboard on this example - my point is simply that the shops take customers for granted. We’re Christians therefore it is our role to ’support’ (ie buy stuff) from a ‘Christian’ bookshop, whether or not the price, selection or customer service is what I expect. No actually.
And I am doing something - I have reduced my buying of Christian books dramatically, and the most recent book I bought was from a print-on-demand service, which guaranteed a fair percentage to the author. I also buy from specialist book stalls at events, order direct from the publishers and take advice from others before ordering online. If you can’t get your house in order, don’t bother suggesting to me that you’re a legitimate business.
Joe - I am a professional author and have worked in publishing as well as bookselling. POD generally does not offer a better margins for writers. And I have figures to show this. A number of crime wrtiers I know only use POD for books that are old and have gone out of print rather than as a legitimate source of income. We are not talking about J K Rowlings here, but mid range authors. Also your maths about discounts does not add up. Do that for too many customers and you will start running out of money. If a bulk order came into the shops I’ve worked in then we would get every book out and check them for damage. Often we had to get them from a wholesaler rather than direct from the publisher so we couldn’t even negotiate with the publisher and the wholesaler wasn’t interested. If any book was unsuitable for use we then went through the problem of sending books back and reordering. This is called customer service, something you wouldn’t get from the internet. Actually start speaking to therse people who run the bookstalls at events and bookshops before you start judging.
Joe - you’ve sparked a good, necessary debate here. I think you’ve pertinently nailed the situation with comments like:
‘1.) For me, the issue is that too many Christian bookshops are full of the same dull selection of books.
2.) I can’t imagine buying a book from a Christian bookshop. I can barely cope with being in the same room as all that tat.
3.) We’re Christians therefore it is our role to ’support’ (ie buy stuff) from a ‘Christian’ bookshop, whether or not the price, selection or customer service is what I expect. No actually.’
I agree with you on 1.) and I sort of agree with you on 2.), although one person’s ‘tat’ is another person’s ‘holy relic’ so I reckon that this one is more subjective. The majority of the population probably can’t imagine buying a book from a Christian bookshop and probably a majority of those who make a regular commitment to their Christian faith almost never visit a Christian bookshop. So you are not alone there.
3.) asserts that we are railroaded into supporting a substandard service because it for the sake of mission. I think that has been the case. The question you raise is just the same as asking why can’t every act of liturgy be prepared and executed with the same planning, professionalism, passion and with the same quality of dedicated equipment as a good night’s clubbing/trip to the opera/theatre performance? Or, why do we accept weak coffee in chipped cups in a draughty hall as the best we can do to welcome people into our community? If Christ is our wonderful Saviour then we should be serving him to the absolute best of not only our ability but also our intelligence.
OK, so many of our churches are not blessed with the cash resources to buy a shelf full of gizmos and our Christian bookshops don’t have the money to run glossy promotions and have complete makeovers of their premises every two years. But they should have the intelligence to be able to offer a quality of service and stock selection that is second to none. Staff who not only know their jobs, not only love God, but also love the rich diversity with which the faith is communicated and by which it grows are vital. Competing on price is tougher. Maybe we’ll save that for another day…
There are some great bookshops out there – and you’ve found one, Buckfast – but I believe you are right that many cater too much for what is safe and dull.
So – IF you think that there is a need for Christian bookshops, what would YOU like them to be? What would you like them to do? Is it just having a wide range of intelligent, boundary-pushing, titles attuned to our everyday needs, with highly knowledgeable staff and competitive discounts? Or are there ways in which they could be more pro-active in creating new communities of those who still enjoy reading, exploring the ‘big questions’ but who find the business of church a stale, alien concept?
[Sorry to interrupt the flow of conversation - but just to say that might be a delay in the appearance of some comments for the rest of the day as I’m away from the computer and therefore unable to moderate the ones the site tells me to moderate. Apologies.]
Phelim - I don’t work in the book trade, I’m not pretending to know how it works, but giving my observations. However, I do know that the POD service I used gave the author a fair rate. I don’t know, nor am making claims about other POD services. I’d also dispute that you don’t get customer service online. I once received a damaged book, reported it to the online retailer and they sent me an undamaged copy next post. Like anything else, there are good online retailers and bad ones. High Street shops are not automatically better at customer service than internet shops. I’m not sure the point you are making about stalls.
Pax - actually, I have some level of disgust at the professionalism of Christianity, which I recognise undermines my argument somewhat here. I want to support the small and local, I glory in the substandard. A glossy church is the one that sees me out of the door very quickly. But books they sell are generally both glossy and lacking in content. As far as I’m concerned, they’re just outlets for big publishers pushing their wares, which like a Chinese meal is (or can be) immediately satisfying, but do not nourish.
OK, that is too harsh - there are probably some good books in there somewhere, but you have to do a lot of looking to find them.
As I said above, Christian bookshops should have a competitive physical advantage which outweighs even being price uncompetitive compared to internet shops. The fact that the shops are too often carbon copies of every other Christian bookshop indicates that they don’t recognise this.
OK, Joe - and I hate over production as much as the next person - but being professional and being slick, or glossy as you say, are different things. Professionalism is being well-trained and doing a job to the best possible standard. Glossy is all style and no substance - the wide smile with the eyes already looking for the next potential donor.
However, when you say you ‘glory in the substandard’ I reckon you really do undermine your own argument. Better to glory in the subversive. So, titles please for a subversive Christian bookshop…
the shops are too often carbon copies of every other Christian bookshop…
You’ve said this a couple of times now, Joe: I’m curious: exactly how many Christian bookshops have you visited?
None of us are pretending that anyone owes us a living; as John Duncan says in my blog:
Now the fact is that nobody owes us a living; I do not believe we have any right to appeal to the Christian public to come to us and support us unless we provide a really good service, a good environment for customers and all the rest of it.
What I am arguing for, though, is for a distinctive Christian presence on our high streets, in the marketplace. That’s what Christian bookshops can provide — and I think that the more of us that work together for this, the better; and I’m all in favour of Christian Cafés too: seems a natural kinda combination to me.
An U.S. perspective:
The only decent Christian bookstores in town are at the UCC and conservative Lutheran seminaries and at the Episcopal cathedral. They don’t have to make a profit. Their hours are often inconvenient. However, I do my best to buy from them (well, the Cathedral and UCC).
We have carbon-copy Christian bookstores publishing for the conservative - evangelical - Fundamentalist - Pentecostal crowd - about a dozen in an area of 2 million media metro population (40 mile radius around central city). Gift Bibles, Veggie Tales DVDs, episode N of the Left Behind novels, and for annotated Bibles, the Scofield annotated King James or NIV. (Scofield is the Dispensationalist who helped make apocalyptism so popular in the 20th century and beyond). Tchotzes / dust catchers abound - clothing, WWJD jewelry, purses, a zillion fake-porcelain figurines, none of which make any sense to old-style Protestants or Catholics. What these bookshops do not have is theology, history, languages, classic devotional writing (they do have Chicken Soup for the Soul equivalents). Zzzzz.
Are these conservative evangelical - Fundamentalist - Pentecostal bookstores common in the U.K.?
I forgot to mention, the carbon copy nature of U.S. conservative etc Christian bookstores is in part due to the large percentage of stores belonging to chains. So, one chain store with 4 local outlets serving different suburbs with the identical stock.
Phil
Your quote from John Duncan mentions that Christian bookshops should provide ‘all the rest of it’. That’s the rub, that’s where we need to concentrate. Good service a must, knowledgeable staff a must, welcoming atmosphere a must, comprehensive and surprising stock a must, potential to be competitive important. But what more? What can make Christian bookshops truly distinctive communities? You know many shops - give us some examples (you can preserve their modesty) of the new things some shops are doing to become Christ centres that make them, to paraphrase Thomas Bray, effective conduits for the knowledge and love of God?
Today Amazon removed Kate Mosse and other Orion publications from sale. Why? Because they want to sell the books as cheaply as possible. Orion on the otherhand do not want to make a loss on the books that they sell to Amazon. So because Amazon has the muscle they are boycotting Orion. What does this have to do with this debate? Where Amazon, Supermarkets (esp Asda and Tescos) and Waterstones (supported as they are by the HMV record label) have the muscle to do this type of bullying your small chains as independent Christian bookshops do not. This is the same in any market place. Look at how many small butchers, grocers, bakers and other type of shops have closed because they can not financially compete with the big four supermarkets.
Joe - I agree with Phil’s comments about how many bookshops have you visited. Not one bookshop in my area could be classified as a carbon copy of the others. Why? Becuase they are working to meet the needs of their communities and each community is different. This is why I talk of them as a mission. You also mention the service you got one one book - now try doing that on a book that costs over £100 pounds, before postage costs, as many traditional churches may have to do with lectern Bibles and similar.
I agree though on the content of books. For too many years Christian publishing has been fashion led, reactive than proactive. And UK publishing, as are certain parts of the Church, on US authors. Its time for the large Biritish publishers to start supporting British Christians rather than megachurch pastors and tv ministers. Surely God is speaking through people here in the UK and not just to people from the States.
Joe, I’m concerned at the implication that anyone who places a bulk order for bibles at their local Christian bookshop is going to be ripped off. At our shop we will always try and price such an order as competitively as possible. If you are seriously talking about several hundred bibles (I don’t think I have ever had an order that large!) I would be looking to give at least a 25% discount and possibly more (unless it is some really obscure bible). In the case of the NIV the publishers offer good discounts on a bulk purchase which, with a big enough order, booksellers have the option to further discount a little. The same for NRSV (or used to be). Good News can be bought by booksellers at a discount in packs of 20. With other bibles a trade rep can usually secure a bookseller better terms for a quantity purchase.
When you say ‘half the price’ is this literal or figurative? The only way I am aware that that could be literally possible is if you get NIV’s from the International Bible Society, who produce extremely cheap bulk buys aimed at the developing world. I don’t know what the quality of these is, but they certainly are a lot cheaper than any offer I could give.
I am aware that it is often possible, for example to get GNBs a bit cheaper from Amazon for a bulk buy. However I think that we always offer a price that is competitive, and occasionally the best around. I was asked for a quote for 120 Mission Praise words books the other day, and what I was able to offer was, as far as I could tell, noticeably better than anywhere else I could find online.
We offer speed, reliablilty, personal service and product knowledge. We regularly fulfil last-minute bulk bible orders for schools who need them ‘the next day!’. We offer free presentation plates for bibles for school leavers. We will replace individual damaged copies quickly and without demur. We offer free delivery on an order over £25. I am sure we are not alone.
John - it sounds like you run a good business 
We need more like you.
Pax Vobiscum:
… What can make Christian bookshops truly distinctive communities? You know many shops - give us some examples (you can preserve their modesty) of the new things some shops are doing to become Christ centres that make them, to paraphrase Thomas Bray, effective conduits for the knowledge and love of God?
Sadly, one of the most dynamic Christian bookshops I know of closed down back in 2004 when redevelopments at the shopping centre it was based forced it out. Nonetheless I find the story of The Ocracy inspirational and think it’s well worth telling: you’ll find it here.
Then there’s Canaan Christian Book Centre, Staines, who have set a fine example by providing a professional counselling service as part of what they do: more about that in my post More than just a business?.
At which point I’ve exhausted my “2 links per comment” limit, and it’s past my bedtime anyway… g’night all.
[Aside to Phil: No problem with you doing more than one comment so you can put more than your two links - the ‘two links’ thing is just there to weed out a large percentage of the spam comments - ie those which are just a list of links.]
Thanks Dave - appreciate that; I’m in the process of compiling a longer response to Pax Vobiscum’s challenge in the UKCBD Blog: should appear within the next few days… (says he, optimistically).
The Sycamore Tree Bookshop in Nuneaton are also pretty good. An indepndent bookshop, it also provides a counselling service and its trustees oversee the local Youth 180 team of youth workers.
