Comments on: Climate change service and march in London http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/ by Dave Walker Thu, 23 May 2013 08:03:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Steve http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-227033 Steve Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:03:58 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-227033 Look, it's not about the science or lack of science in the global warming debate, but rather, the proper role of 'activism' in Christianity. In a Martha-and-Mary context, activists by definition come as Martha - too busy about a false sense of serving to bother about that which is most important. Look, it’s not about the science or lack of science in the global warming debate, but rather, the proper role of ‘activism’ in Christianity. In a Martha-and-Mary context, activists by definition come as Martha – too busy about a false sense of serving to bother about that which is most important.

]]> By: Activism, Good Works and Faith | Careful Thought http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-227014 Activism, Good Works and Faith | Careful Thought Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:41:19 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-227014 [...] What is the right role for good works and/or ‘activism’ in the Christian walk?  I understand from James that ‘faith without works is dead” (James 2:20).  Christ himself gave the example of helping the needy, but where does it cross the line into something else?  I’ve seen many recent examples of Christians who have become active in political campaigns or global warming activism.  Is this our role?  We do have civic responsibilities as citizens of a given country, or even of the world, but it’s not our first responsibility.  Maybe I’ve have the wrong perspective, but I think our first priority should be to reach a lost and fallen world with the Gospel. [...] [...] What is the right role for good works and/or ‘activism’ in the Christian walk?  I understand from James that ‘faith without works is dead” (James 2:20).  Christ himself gave the example of helping the needy, but where does it cross the line into something else?  I’ve seen many recent examples of Christians who have become active in political campaigns or global warming activism.  Is this our role?  We do have civic responsibilities as citizens of a given country, or even of the world, but it’s not our first responsibility.  Maybe I’ve have the wrong perspective, but I think our first priority should be to reach a lost and fallen world with the Gospel. [...]

]]> By: Steve Hearn http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226980 Steve Hearn Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:10:45 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226980 Joe, I did not intend to lay all the blame on China, it was an example of what is happening in the world today. Shoot you? Nope, I shall leave that to the comedians, as we cartoonists only fight with pencil and ink! LOL! Its good to debate and share view points. I am always happy to listen to others but from all sides. I'm still waiting for our Mediterranian summers? Joe, I did not intend to lay all the blame on China, it was an example of what is happening in the world today. Shoot you? Nope, I shall leave that to the comedians, as we cartoonists only fight with pencil and ink! LOL! Its good to debate and share view points. I am always happy to listen to others but from all sides. I’m still waiting for our Mediterranian summers?

]]> By: joe http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226979 joe Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:25:05 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226979 Steve Hearn, China produces far less per head of population than any western country. In fact, given that China produces consumer goods for western economies, some of that which it produces is our responsibility anyway. Yes, China and India are an issue. But suggesting that they are the cause of the historic rise in CO2 is nonsense, and manifestly unjust. Oh dear, I'm arguing about climate change with a cartoonist on a cartoon website. Somebody shoot me. Steve Hearn, China produces far less per head of population than any western country. In fact, given that China produces consumer goods for western economies, some of that which it produces is our responsibility anyway.

Yes, China and India are an issue. But suggesting that they are the cause of the historic rise in CO2 is nonsense, and manifestly unjust.

Oh dear, I’m arguing about climate change with a cartoonist on a cartoon website. Somebody shoot me.

]]> By: Mike Smith http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226978 Mike Smith Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:02:34 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226978 I can't believe I'm getting drawn on this again. I just can't leave false statements unanswered for anyone to read. <blockquote cite="Steve">Mike, Is climate change going on? Sure, it was colder today where I live than it was yesterday. It’s drier than it was last year but wetter than ten years ago. If there is a globally evident change in weather patterns, we’re better off looking to natural causes (i.e., natural variations in solar activity).</blockquote> If you're referring to fact that the sun is on the brighter side of average over the last hundred years (eg Edouard Bard et al's analysis of cosmogenic nuclides) then that has already been taken into account in the climate models and predictions. A well written summary of the issues can be found in Nature: http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/ccr/raimund/publications/Muscheler_et_al_Nature2005.pdf Even if we take the upper limit, and use the views of Sami Solanki. He comments that: "Although the rarity of the current episode of high average sunspot number may be taken as an indication that the Sun has contributed to the unusual degree of climate change during the twentieth century, we stress that solar variability is unlikely to be the prime cause of the strong warming during the last three decades." http://www.iac.ethz.ch/people/stefanbr/teaching/vorlesung1/sun_solanki.pdf <blockquote cite="Steve">Mars is experiencing climatic change as well. Did we do that?</blockquote> If you're referring to the shrinking southern ice cap on Mars at the moment, this is quite clearly a localised climate change, due to the geometry of the planet and its orbit. I couldn't get hold of the article, Athens is playing up, but from its abstract: "the south pole of Mars is characterized by two distinct regional climates that are the result of dynamical forcing by the largest southern impact basins, Argyre and Hellas. The style of surface frost deposition is controlled by these regional climates. In the cold and stormy conditions that exist poleward of 60° S and extend 180° in longitude west from the Mountains of Mitchel (approx 30° W), surface frost accumulation is dominated by precipitation. In the opposite hemisphere, the polar atmosphere is relatively warm and clear and frost accumulation is dominated by direct vapour deposition. It is the differences in these deposition styles that determine the cap albedo." --from "Albedo of the south pole on Mars determined by topographic forcing of atmosphere dynamics", Anthony Colaprete et al. Nature 2005. <blockquote cite="Steve">Man’s role, if any, in effecting changes in the biosphere are minimal. Mt. Pinatubo put more carbon in the atmosphere than the combined effects of industrialization in the past two centuries.</blockquote> That is such a stupid lie, at least if you're going to troll, troll with things that aren't complete nonsense. Why it's wrong: 1) Carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere are rising steadily due to human production. This is clearly shown in many journal papers, in the IPCC, etc. You can probably work this out with a pen and paper: average person creates (~1T/year) and multiply by human population (6Bx1T=6x10^12kg) divide by the mass of the atmosphere (5x10^18 kg) -> voila ~1.2ppm (by mass). The measurements show this gradual increase. If it were produced by volcanoes, we'd see spikes in the graph of CO2, which we don't. 2) The isotopes of the CO2 in the atmosphere indicate that this is 'recent' carbon - ie that from coal, oil and n.gas, rather than that from volcanoes. 3) They've estimated, using spectoscopic sensors etc how much CO2 volcanoes emit (in total it is about 0.15 Gt/year, humans emit about 7 Gt/year). <blockquote cite="Steve">My point is that, as believers, this is small potatoes compared to what our true charge is - the Great Commission. Unfortunately, feeding the needy is not as sexy or politically expedient as demonstrating against global warming..</blockquote> I'm an atheist, so I don't have "the Great Commission". 'feeding the needy' is okay, but allowing them to feed and cloth themselves, and have respect and a home, education, health-care and security I'd say is a better solution. Many of us went on the march in Edinburgh a couple of years ago to "Make Poverty History". With the multitude of problems the world now faces: Sustainability, Security, Population Growth, Industrialisation, Limited fuel, Water tables falling, disease, the one thing that will put the nail in the coffin of the developing world and make poverty permanent is to cause vast climate change. If you want to make poverty history, as well as avoid the Holocene extinction event we're entering, help stop climate change. I can’t believe I’m getting drawn on this again. I just can’t leave false statements unanswered for anyone to read.

Mike,
Is climate change going on? Sure, it was colder today where I live than it was yesterday. It’s drier than it was last year but wetter than ten years ago. If there is a globally evident change in weather patterns, we’re better off looking to natural causes (i.e., natural variations in solar activity).

If you’re referring to fact that the sun is on the brighter side of average over the last hundred years (eg Edouard Bard et al’s analysis of cosmogenic nuclides) then that has already been taken into account in the climate models and predictions.
A well written summary of the issues can be found in Nature:
http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/ccr/raimund/publications/Muscheler_et_al_Nature2005.pdf
Even if we take the upper limit, and use the views of Sami Solanki. He comments that:
“Although the rarity of the current episode of high average sunspot number may be taken as an indication that the Sun has contributed to the unusual degree of climate change during the twentieth century, we stress that solar variability is unlikely to be the prime cause of the strong warming during the last three decades.”
http://www.iac.ethz.ch/people/stefanbr/teaching/vorlesung1/sun_solanki.pdf

Mars is experiencing climatic change as well. Did we do that?

If you’re referring to the shrinking southern ice cap on Mars at the moment, this is quite clearly a localised climate change, due to the geometry of the planet and its orbit. I couldn’t get hold of the article, Athens is playing up, but from its abstract:
“the south pole of Mars is characterized by two distinct regional climates that are the result of dynamical forcing by the largest southern impact basins, Argyre and Hellas. The style of surface frost deposition is controlled by these regional climates. In the cold and stormy conditions that exist poleward of 60° S and extend 180° in longitude west from the Mountains of Mitchel (approx 30° W), surface frost accumulation is dominated by precipitation. In the opposite hemisphere, the polar atmosphere is relatively warm and clear and frost accumulation is dominated by direct vapour deposition. It is the differences in these deposition styles that determine the cap albedo.”
–from “Albedo of the south pole on Mars determined by topographic forcing of atmosphere dynamics”, Anthony Colaprete et al. Nature 2005.

Man’s role, if any, in effecting changes in the biosphere are minimal. Mt. Pinatubo put more carbon in the atmosphere than the combined effects of industrialization in the past two centuries.

That is such a stupid lie, at least if you’re going to troll, troll with things that aren’t complete nonsense.
Why it’s wrong:

1) Carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere are rising steadily due to human production. This is clearly shown in many journal papers, in the IPCC, etc. You can probably work this out with a pen and paper: average person creates (~1T/year) and multiply by human population (6Bx1T=6×10^12kg) divide by the mass of the atmosphere (5×10^18 kg) -> voila ~1.2ppm (by mass). The measurements show this gradual increase. If it were produced by volcanoes, we’d see spikes in the graph of CO2, which we don’t.

2) The isotopes of the CO2 in the atmosphere indicate that this is ‘recent’ carbon – ie that from coal, oil and n.gas, rather than that from volcanoes.

3) They’ve estimated, using spectoscopic sensors etc how much CO2 volcanoes emit (in total it is about 0.15 Gt/year, humans emit about 7 Gt/year).

My point is that, as believers, this is small potatoes compared to what our true charge is – the Great Commission. Unfortunately, feeding the needy is not as sexy or politically expedient as demonstrating against global warming..

I’m an atheist, so I don’t have “the Great Commission”. ‘feeding the needy’ is okay, but allowing them to feed and cloth themselves, and have respect and a home, education, health-care and security I’d say is a better solution. Many of us went on the march in Edinburgh a couple of years ago to “Make Poverty History”. With the multitude of problems the world now faces: Sustainability, Security, Population Growth, Industrialisation, Limited fuel, Water tables falling, disease, the one thing that will put the nail in the coffin of the developing world and make poverty permanent is to cause vast climate change.

If you want to make poverty history, as well as avoid the Holocene extinction event we’re entering, help stop climate change.

]]> By: Anne http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226975 Anne Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:35:10 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226975 Steve, I think your science is a bit off, as are your assumptions about this large group of people in London whom you've never met. If those who are observing the Earth are correct about climate changes, then we can be pretty sure that the people who will suffer the most, and the most quickly, are those people who already don't have enough food and water to sustain themselves. As for the large group of people in London, I don't know any of them--except Dave via his blog. If this were the Middle Ages, perhaps they'd be getting together to consider what to do to help plague sufferers. 200 years ago in the U.S., they might have been considering what to do about slavery. It's perfectly appropriate--and natural--for Christians to gather and take action in the face of whatever great issues are at work in their world and in their time. Anne Steve,
I think your science is a bit off, as are your assumptions about this large group of people in London whom you’ve never met. If those who are observing the Earth are correct about climate changes, then we can be pretty sure that the people who will suffer the most, and the most quickly, are those people who already don’t have enough food and water to sustain themselves.

As for the large group of people in London, I don’t know any of them–except Dave via his blog. If this were the Middle Ages, perhaps they’d be getting together to consider what to do to help plague sufferers. 200 years ago in the U.S., they might have been considering what to do about slavery. It’s perfectly appropriate–and natural–for Christians to gather and take action in the face of whatever great issues are at work in their world and in their time.

Anne

]]> By: Steve Hearn http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226973 Steve Hearn Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:58:09 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226973 Yes the climate is changing and the earth's tempreture is rising. Yes we need to address what we can do effectively to understand what impact of positive change can be implemented. With countries like China creating so amny power stations that make a big contribution to carbon emissions, how can we get around the table and offer an alternative, because like it or not, the energy is required for China et all. It's not easy but my faith lies in technology to provide an alternative that can deliver what the planet needs. So, please try to boil your kettle less, or even ban coffee drinks on such marches as these, that would make a statement that the march itself would be eco friendly. Unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier, the ironic thing about these marches is that they themselves contribute extra carbon into the atmosphere by taking place! D'oH! Yes the climate is changing and the earth’s tempreture is rising. Yes we need to address what we can do effectively to understand what impact of positive change can be implemented.

With countries like China creating so amny power stations that make a big contribution to carbon emissions, how can we get around the table and offer an alternative, because like it or not, the energy is required for China et all. It’s not easy but my faith lies in technology to provide an alternative that can deliver what the planet needs.

So, please try to boil your kettle less, or even ban coffee drinks on such marches as these, that would make a statement that the march itself would be eco friendly. Unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier, the ironic thing about these marches is that they themselves contribute extra carbon into the atmosphere by taking place! D’oH!

]]> By: joe http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226966 joe Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:47:55 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226966 If there was a road where people were repeatedly mugged, there might be a range of responses. The correct emergency response might be to administer first aid. But if that keeps happening, at some point you have to ask why the people keep getting mugged. You might have to campaign to get better street lighting, invest in youth programs or police. You might, from your armchair, believe that anthropogenic carbon emissions are not causing climate change. But better and more educated people than you and I do believe that. Evidence from the ground, including the work my cousin is painstakingly recording from the Arctic, suggests that there is a real and demonstrative warming. Frankly, I am more inclined to believe them that a random poster on a cartoon website. If there was a road where people were repeatedly mugged, there might be a range of responses. The correct emergency response might be to administer first aid.

But if that keeps happening, at some point you have to ask why the people keep getting mugged. You might have to campaign to get better street lighting, invest in youth programs or police.

You might, from your armchair, believe that anthropogenic carbon emissions are not causing climate change. But better and more educated people than you and I do believe that. Evidence from the ground, including the work my cousin is painstakingly recording from the Arctic, suggests that there is a real and demonstrative warming.

Frankly, I am more inclined to believe them that a random poster on a cartoon website.

]]> By: Steve http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226944 Steve Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:09:08 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226944 Mike, Is climate change going on? Sure, it was colder today where I live than it was yesterday. It's drier than it was last year but wetter than ten years ago. If there is a globally evident change in weather patterns, we're better off looking to natural causes (i.e., natural variations in solar activity). Mars is experiencing climatic change as well. Did we do that? Man's role, if any, in effecting changes in the biosphere are minimal. Mt. Pinatubo put more carbon in the atmosphere than the combined effects of industrialization in the past two centuries. My point is that, as believers, this is small potatoes compared to what our true charge is - the Great Commission. Unfortunately, feeding the needy is not as sexy or politically expedient as demonstrating against global warming.. Mike,
Is climate change going on? Sure, it was colder today where I live than it was yesterday. It’s drier than it was last year but wetter than ten years ago. If there is a globally evident change in weather patterns, we’re better off looking to natural causes (i.e., natural variations in solar activity). Mars is experiencing climatic change as well. Did we do that?

Man’s role, if any, in effecting changes in the biosphere are minimal. Mt. Pinatubo put more carbon in the atmosphere than the combined effects of industrialization in the past two centuries.

My point is that, as believers, this is small potatoes compared to what our true charge is – the Great Commission. Unfortunately, feeding the needy is not as sexy or politically expedient as demonstrating against global warming..

]]> By: Steve http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/comment-page-1/#comment-226943 Steve Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:59:49 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/12/04/climate-change-service-and-march-in-london/#comment-226943 Ann, You are absolutely right on target. 'Activism' to feed the hungry, etc., isn't activism, but living the Gospel. I am in full agreement. But maybe we're splitting hairs. On the other hand, nowhere in Scripture does it mention reducing carbon emissions, etc. The planet does not need to be saved, people do. We are to be stewards of His creation and our primary mission is reach the lost. I simply have a problem with people who worship the creation rather than the creator. The global whining movement smacks of that. Ann,
You are absolutely right on target. ‘Activism’ to feed the hungry, etc., isn’t activism, but living the Gospel. I am in full agreement. But maybe we’re splitting hairs.

On the other hand, nowhere in Scripture does it mention reducing carbon emissions, etc. The planet does not need to be saved, people do. We are to be stewards of His creation and our primary mission is reach the lost.

I simply have a problem with people who worship the creation rather than the creator. The global whining movement smacks of that.

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