Segregating the sinful sexes

29 Responses to “Segregating the sinful sexes”

1. Peter Kirk says:
   

   The only segregated groups in my church (evangelical Anglican) are the ones which are in practice chiefly for older people. Actually the one which is officially for over 60s and in practice for over 80s is not supposed to be segregated, it’s just that only ladies turn up. There is a men’s breakfast but even food attracts mostly over 60s. By contrast there are lots of groups for younger people which are all mixed. So perhaps segregation is on the way out.

   By contrast, when I spent a few months in generally very egalitarian Australia I attended a modern-style Pentecostal church (linked to Hillsong) which had separate housegroups for men and women. It worked there, and had advantages for couples with young children who could go out on different nights. I’m not sure if it would work here.

   September 14th, 2007 at 12:40 am
2. Elizabeth says:
   

   My church has a few segregated groups. There is a “Men’s Group” - they do great things like have a curry and a beer night or a big fry-up breakfast at 10 a.m. and do manly bonding things (not exactly sure what these are as I am excluded from this group by dint of not being a man). All the women I know want to join this group because it is lots of FUN.

   There is also a “Ladies’ Breakfast” group. I have only been to one of these events and it was not much fun. It involved getting up very early, eating a very healthy breakfast with a room full of 60 women all yattering loudly at 19 to the dozen at 7.30 a.m. - and making a flower arrangement. A woman talked to us about some uplifting topic or other to do with flowers. I don’t bond with this group either by dint of not really doing early mornings (or knowing how to arrange flowers to make them look attractive AND make some profound statement on how my arrangement reflects the state of my life).

   I think there may be a Ladies Only homegroup which meets during the day (rather than evenings). There is also the Mothers’ Union which speaks for itself - although I understand it is not exclusively for mothers - but is exclusively for women. I think there are also some “mother and baby” type groups…

   Type of church: Anglican - evangelical end

   Minglist is OK but open to misunderstanding. Definitely leave the “e” out. I think I would go for “mingler” - but what would I know? I don’t think it is something I do naturally - at least not at 7.30 a.m.

   September 14th, 2007 at 12:46 am
3. Anne says:
   

   My church (flamingly liberal Episcopal variety) doesn’t, but I kind of wish they did. Sometimes it’s restful just to be with other people of your own sex or age group or whatever. We had a group called the “spiritual sisters” where we just sat around one evening a month and knitted and talked about–well, whatever. Our knitting was mostly given away. There’s a whole “thing” in the U.S. about knitting for the Seamen’s Church Institute. Merchant sailors who earn very little pay often get to Baltimore and points north with no warm clothing to speak of. So one of the knitting projects involved making sweaters, vests, scarves, and socks for them. Others were making blankets and other little warm things for babies, who are often sent home from the hospital with no warm clothing at all. Prayer shawls were being made for people who needed them. And it was also perfectly OK to knit on your own project. If there had been a man in the parish who enjoyed knitting, we’d have welcomed him warmly, but face it–it’s a woman’s sort of activity. I’m not sure what happened, exactly, but the format of the group has changed. I think knitting is probably too stodgy for a flamingly liberal church, though if you look at the indie crafts movement, you see a lot of young women knitting a lot of flamingly liberal and creative stuff. We should probably have quit knitting for the babies and seamen and started making ourselves teeny little bikinis. Sigh.

   September 14th, 2007 at 2:03 am
4. Ian says:
   

   The young women in my (Orthodox) parish have their own group whicb they formed, though social activities are mixed. We don’t tend to go for small groups: not sure if that’s just an Orthodox attitude or if it’s because we all spend so much time talking over lunch after Liturgy!

   I tend to be a ‘minglist’: if only as the typical male activities [football, etc.] don’t appeal.

   September 14th, 2007 at 2:50 am
5. Kathryn says:
   

   Liberal catholic parish here with only the Mothers Union fitting into the segregation zone…though even here, membership is OPEN to men (many a Bishop belongs, principally as a diplomatic move I presume)
   On the whole, we’re not very good at groups of any sort though…nor do we have a huge crowd of men with nowhere to go and do their bonding. I wonder if having a beer and curry group would materially effect this…

   September 14th, 2007 at 8:59 am
6. ferijen says:
   

   In a few MOTR Anglican churches I’ve seen this in a response to the fact that so many things are accidentally dominated by one particular groups. So there’s lots of Mums who bring their kids to church, and get involved with the Sunday morning type things, but the Dads don’t come very often - so something “blokey” is arranged for the Dads to encourage them.

   September 14th, 2007 at 9:35 am
7. Jeremy says:
   

   beware, ye minglers, the knitted bikini

   September 14th, 2007 at 9:38 am
8. Denise says:
   

   My first comment, though i read you regularly, ’tis exciting stuff indeed…but I digress.

   I’m all for both mingling, and segregation, my fellowship(Non-denom) do women’s weekends where we all escape to the country. The men also are meant to go on weekend aways, but they never get around to organizing it!
   I’m also the youth leader and sometimes we do segregated youth meetings, but that’s just to talk about sex and whatnot! Cos you know you can’t mention sex in a mixed room with all those teenage hormones running around, you never know what might happen!! haha, kidding sometimes it’s easier to do that separately, keeps the giggling and “I’m not answering that question” silences to a minimum!

   September 14th, 2007 at 9:43 am
9. chris clark says:
   

   I have never understood segregation seems a bit against Holy Writ. We do men and women’s breakfasts which are at the same time as a prayer meeting. Much better attended than the prayer meeting and the men who usually pray, eat (except me he said polishing his halo) but the women who usually pray, still pray…work that one out.

   September 14th, 2007 at 10:14 am
10. z says:
    

    In a benefice of six C of E villages, I don’t think there are any men- or women-only groups. Once in a while there’s a Men’s Breakfast, for which women cook, or a Women’s Breakfast, for which men cook, but that’s about every two years. And it’s a fry-up in both cases.

    The women would be well up for a curry and beer night, but would certainly invite men.

    September 14th, 2007 at 10:20 am
11. Rachel says:
    

    Where do you find churches with beer groups?

    I’d have to invest in a fake beard and baggy jumper if they wouldn’t let me join! (Although the beard might interfere with the beer drinking… hmm… this plan may need more attention.)

    September 14th, 2007 at 10:26 am
12. Tom says:
    

    As someone who joined in the Ooos… for my part it was a recognition of the fact that there are lots of nasty nasty bits in the Bible…and nothing whatsoever to do with segregated groups in the church. It’s sometimes hard to come to terms with a God who, in response to the said Midianites and Amalekites then sent the Israelites to do their own bit of murder and pillaging. Doesn’t quite square with the ‘love your enemy’ ethic does it? But then that’s only a problem for those who insist on reading the Bible as if it were the Qu’ran… (i.e. as if it claimed to be the actual words of God). The Bible never actually makes such a claim… it’s a collection of historical, legal, and poetic documents which need to be read in context.

    As for segregated groups - they are great fun, and a brilliant way to encourage men, in particular, to find out that church is for them too. In a church which, after the two world wars was largely stripped of its male members, and whose priesthood is now 50% women, and whose services are full of flowers, singing and dresses, it’s vital for the church to show that there are other ways of being a Christian. God, I believe, is into curries and beer as much as flowers and hymn-singing…if it helps people connect to him. Roll on a diverse church!

    Anyone interested in getting expert help and a wealth of resources to start their own men’s group might like to check out Christian Vision for Men

    [Dave adds: Tom - the link wasn’t there properly so I added it in - I assume this was the site you intended!]

    September 14th, 2007 at 10:40 am
13. Lynda says:
    

    We run a ladies only evening home group - there used to be a mens group running on alternate weeks so as to enable families with children … but the men didn’t have the stamina for it and it folded.

    September 14th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
14. Dave says:
    

    My questions for all you anti-minglists are these:

    - What of the woman who hates early morning communal breakfasts but likes beer and curry?
    - What of the man who would like to learn to knit a bikini?

    Is there a fear that if beer and curry nights were opened up to women then they might take over and start to make flower arrangements in the pint glasses and suchlike so that the men stopped coming? I take Tom’s point about church not being terribly ‘manly’, but I suspect there are a lot of women who are not really into hymns and flowers. I do not see the problem with the more ‘manly’ alternatives being open to both sexes.

    Other points:

    Interestingly from these responses and one or two by e-mail segregation of sexes does not seem to be especially linked to one type of church. Though perhaps Evangelicals and Pentecostals do a bit more of it than most. Like Peter I found that Australian Pentecostals segregated quite a bit.

    Rachel - My church at university had a men’s beer group. I suspect there are others.

    September 14th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
15. Sarah B says:
    

    Traditional Anglican leaning towards catholic which would call itself anglo-catholic but other smight think it doesn’t have enough incense often enough to qualify!! No segregated groups at all. Mothers Union closed a few years ago, our scouts have girls, our choire is fully mixed juniors and adults, our youth groups are mixed entirely except… our brownies are girls only and after the sad death of one of our parishioners the flower ladies are now just ladies - though we did have a guy do it for years!

    As a woman who likes beer and curry I am more a minglist!

    September 14th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
16. Anne says:
    

    Interesting. As for men wanting to knit bikinis, I suspect that if one had shown up, we would have been glad to welcome him and to help him out with his pattern. If that were to happen at any church, it might be more likely to happen at our particular church. I guess my point is that churches are large buildings with lots of room, and sadly, they are empty for much of the time. Groups should be allowed to spring up and flourish for as long as they’re needed. I know of a church that has a group called the ROMEO’s, which stands for Retired Old Men Eating Out. It’s just as it’s described. Their retired women’s group meets Tuesday morning for prayer, scripture reading, and–yes, needlework. They mingle at any of the other groups that interest them.

    September 14th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
17. jody says:
    

    minglist minglist minglist

    I get thoroughly fed up of croissants and jam being offered to the women and bacon and eggs to the guys, I like curry, I like beer, I wear trousers, is that not enough?

    but seriously - our church has some men’s and women’s segregated stuff and I do go to it, with a little niggle at the back of my mind, but I go to it because community is always found in groups, even if they are not always the groups you would naturally like (having said that, that could be what the apartheid -ists said……I’ll leave you to think about that)

    September 14th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
18. Philip of Samaria says:
    

    Not only do they wear the trousers, now they want our beer and curry too!

    ‘How do you keep the boys and girls apart vicar’

    ‘I prise them apart with a crowbar’

    September 15th, 2007 at 8:17 am
19. Round-up: From G-d to a great put-down » Metacatholic says:
    

    Three cartoons worth catching: one on Targuman, one from Dave Walker’s Cartoon Blog and the last on Pharyngula. …

    September 15th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
20. Rick says:
    

    Hmmmm, I seem to recall St Paul writing something along the lines of “In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile, no slave nor free, no male or femail - we are all one in Christ Jesus…..

    In our Evangelical Anglican church we don’t do sex-segregation (it’s a bit too ‘brethern’ for our tastes) - we go in for age-ism instead:

    20s-30s group (in practice only married people as single people in their 20s never leave the youth group.)
    40s-50s group and 60+ group.

    20s/30s & 40s/50s tend to do the same sort of thing (skittles, curry nights, paintballing etc) whilst 60s+ have things like ’sing-along-a-Sanky’ evenings. This is maddening for our resident hyper-manic pensioner on HRT who has more energy than most of the 40-year olds but by virtue of her age is not allowed to join in the events she most wants to.

    I, being rebellious, go to whichever event takes my fancy, regardless of my age…..

    September 17th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
21. jody says:
    

    am really liking Rick’s way of doing things ;-P

    September 17th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
22. Stella says:
    

    My church (LDS) has been accused of being sexist by outsiders who don’t know much aout the church. I can see what they mean, but it’s a matter of perspective, I think.

    S.

    September 17th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
23. yay says:
    

    The Sydney evangelical scene is big on segregated events (Katoomba Women’s Convention was last weekend in fact). I don’t like them. The men at my church have just started having shed time. The next women’s thing is a pampering night. I would much rather go to a shed than be pampered.

    Also a lot of the women’s things are about being a good wife or mother or whatever. Relevance to me? Zero!

    And if we must have things just for women, at least have some that aren’t so girly! My old church had craft nights and that sort of stuff. Craft?! Gingerbread house? Why would I make a house using the pieces they provide? Why can’t I make a gingerbread truck or tree or Eiffel Tower?

    September 18th, 2007 at 6:37 am
24. Russ says:
    

    Most of what our church does (CofE, Evangelical) seems to involve food and mingling.
    That said, there is a Women’s Fellowship which is technically open to men, but in reality none want to go. And there’s a Friday morning group which seems to attract women although I’m not sure anyone’s ever actually said men are excluded. And there is a Men’s group (which being manly, has decided not to come up with a name for itself, because names are poncey) which has done some fun things like breakfasts, an X-Box games night, playing golf and going to have pints while watching England being trounced by South Africa at rugby.
    So, to summarise, while we do have some *sort of* segregated groups, our general attitude would be minglist.

    September 18th, 2007 at 8:23 am
25. NancyP says:
    

    We mingle, by choice. What does “segregation of the sexes” mean, when you have a number of transgendered congregants? Some things tend to self-segregate - the golf fundraiser is organized primarily by women, the altar decorations by men, communications (newsweb and newsletter) and audio by women (though that’s a small number of people). The choir certainly isn’t segregated - we have a male alto soloist, and a few female tenor choralists, as well as the usual voice placements. And of course everyone eats!

    Did I mention? Ours is a predominantly gay church and denomination (Metropolitan Community Churches).

    September 18th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
26. JT says:
    

    Minglist:

    1. Campbell, politician
    2. the Merciless, Emperor of the Galaxy

    September 20th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
27. Miserly Leconda says:
    

    I’m going to be lucky for once and get on with life; the life that owns me. I will of course get up the courage to upset myself once and a while with differences in opinion and fact. I believe thoroughly in my right as a unique citizen to explore others, be it their choices or their matters and I don’t have the smallest reservation about knowing who I am because it’s part of the existence that I will become and furthermore. The relationship is not coming as planned, I will be off to take the adventure of lacking predilictive religious nuances without a real congregative experience. Being likely to follow makes me understand my abilities, even when I can hear the shame in myself. It’s hard living for people. It’s even harder living as human…

    September 20th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
28. Bruce Rockwell says:
    

    Still laughing? Good. Then Google “You May Be a Rapture Redneck” and “An Exciting Day at Rapture Bible College.” Believe it or not, these were penned by the love-him-or-hate-him author of “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online)! Bruce

    September 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 am
29. Brian (from Australia) says:
    

    My peeve is against a different segregation — between employees and the non-employed. I have been unable to attend many church activities because they are held during 8am and 6pm on a work day.

    September 26th, 2007 at 3:39 am