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July 12th, 2007

Which is the proper church?

switch

The Pope has said that non-Catholics are not the proper church. Well, he didn’t actually say it, but a document with his name on does say it so for the sake of this post we’ll assume he did say it in the planning meetings for the document. I have been trying to get my head around this as it could now be the case that us non-Catholics have not been the proper church all along when we thought we were. It seems to me that our status as the proper church or otherwise depends largely upon whether the Pope was speaking infallibly when he said it. If I understand things correctly the Pope sometimes speaks infallibly and sometimes doesn’t.

Here is my analysis:

If the Pope was speaking infallibly and was right then the Catholics are the proper church, making us non-Catholics not the proper church.

If the Pope was speaking infallibly and was wrong, then he was not speaking infallibly. Therefore the Catholics are not the proper church. Us non-Catholics would therefore be the proper church, but the Catholics certainly would not be.

If the Pope was speaking fallibly and was right then it would at first appear that us non-Catholics are not the proper church. But, a later Pope could overturn this when speaking infallibly, in which case us non-Catholics would be the proper church even though we had thought that we were not the proper church. Of course this later Pope might be wrong, in which case the Catholics would be proved to be not the proper church, making us the proper church.

If the Pope was speaking fallibly and was wrong then us non-Catholics are the proper church. The Catholics could still be the proper church too though, as you can’t blame the Pope for getting it wrong when speaking fallibly. After all, we all do that.

Of course, it could still be the case in several of these instances that neither the Catholics or us non-Catholics are the proper church, but that a third party that we have not yet thought of are the proper church and neither us nor the Catholics are the proper church. I do not intend to discuss this though as it makes the situation unnecessarily complicated which I do not want to do.

[Minor update to remove mistake made due to fallibility]

20 Comments »



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20 Responses to “Which is the proper church?”


  1. Ann says:

    It’s all right as we have been re-called for repair – read it here

    July 12th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
  2. Sarah B says:

    If only I were surprised by this.

    I can understand at least how the Catholic church might view those who broke away from it (Anglicans, Protestants etc) as not apostolic (though I believe The CofE IS apostolic and I’m not sure the others mind if they are or not) but surely the ORTHODOX church, from which the Catholics broke away MUST be well.. orthodox?

    July 12th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
  3. ash says:

    I’ll vote for the Coptic Orthodox Church. They seem cool.

    July 12th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
  4. Anne says:

    OK, a joke:
    Rumors started circulating that the Second Coming had occurred and that Christ was somewhere on earth. People began to wonder about what to do. They watched the news broadcasts and gathered anxiously in their churches.

    In Rome, massive numbers of the faithful gathered in St. Peter’s Square, watching and waiting, keeping an eye on the balcony up there. At long last the Pope appeared. A hush fell over the crowd as he made the announcement:

    “I have good news and bad news. The good news is that, yes–he’s here. The Second Coming has occurred. The bad news? Well . . . He’s in Salt Lake City.”

    July 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
  5. Philip of samaria says:

    He might as well have said it in latin..

    July 12th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
  6. Paul Roberts says:

    Is the Pope Catholic?

    July 12th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
  7. Richard says:

    I guess it depends if he’s speaking fallibly or infallibly…

    July 12th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
  8. Gregory Porilo says:

    I’m a Catholic but I respect all religions. Yes, the Catholic church was the first church, but does that make it “proper”? It depends on the definition of “proper”. Although I was baptised and brought up in the Catholic church, and attend Mass every Sunday, I also attend Anglican services too, from time to time, and play the organ regularly at two Anglican churches. Whichever church is “proper” I think isn’t so important. There is only one God and I know that the God of the Anglican church is the same God of the Catholic church and of all the other churches.

    July 13th, 2007 at 10:14 am
  9. Russ says:

    I’d say the Pope was speaking inflammably. As soon as any of us starting ruling on who’s out and who’s in, we’re in trouble, so far as I can see.

    Heaven’s likely to spring a few surprises I reckon.

    July 13th, 2007 at 11:22 am
  10. Karin says:

    Dave, I think you got your fallibles and your infallibles mixed up when saying, you can’t blame the Pope for getting it wrong when speaking infallibly, but then we realise you are fallible even though you can be wise and astute and have a knack for bursting bubbles of pretention with grace and humour.

    I hope you had a lie down after typing all that, I’m sure you needed it.

    I think I vote Dave for Pope, he’d do a much better job and real ecumenism and world peace would be much more likely. He’d also be the world’s first cartoonist Pope. No more papal bulls etc, only papal cartoons.

    July 13th, 2007 at 11:49 am
  11. Dave says:

    Karin – you’re right. Good grief. I read it over at least twice and still made a mistake.

    July 13th, 2007 at 11:53 am
  12. Sarah B says:

    Dave, this is unfortunately one of those reasons why you will never be pope. Oh but what a wonderful world that would be!

    July 13th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
  13. joe says:

    I don’t understand why anyone (who isn’t in communion with Rome) really cares about this issue.

    Nobody outside of the Coptic church spends long talking about the latest article from Pope Shenouda III. I don’t suppose many could name the Ecumenical Patriarch Batholomew I or his ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

    On the other hand, I guess it is something else to talk about rather than continually raking over Anglican issues.

    July 13th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
  14. Karin says:

    Are Anglicans not meant to be in good standing with their Catholic brethren and sistren? This declaration with papal blessing could discourage such friendly relations from continuing, Joe, and anything that causes brothers and sisters to be more distant is not a good thing. I suppose the Orthodox church is already a bit cool towards non-Orthodox Christians in the first place, so in general terms there is no similar cosy relationship to damage.

    July 13th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
  15. Mary says:

    It seems like “no news is news”. This has been Catholic teaching ever since I was a child.

    My RC “best” friend still has not forgiven me for becoming an Anglican (although apparently she told her mother its better than me not going to church at all). I’ve had to radically rethink my “thinking” to remove some of the prejudices I was taught being brought up a RC.

    Not that all RCs are like that, I hasten to add, but certainly I was taught “the Papal line”.

    July 13th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
  16. z says:

    I went to a RC school, although I was C of E. As Mary says, this was certainly the teaching then, back in the 1960s. The nuns were very nice to us, under the circumstances, but it was clear that they would be saved and the rest of us wouldn’t.

    July 16th, 2007 at 9:11 am
  17. Nefertiki says:

    Re Orthodox Church being improper too, what happened since Pope Paul VI(?) and Archbishop Anaxagoros kissed and made up? Did they each whisper in each other’s ear while giving the ecumenical hug, “WE’re still the only proper church?” I doubt that Orthodox people mind though as most seem to believe that they are the only true Christians.

    July 16th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
  18. Miss Dagurreotype who has been to Utah says:

    Q: Is the Bishop of Rome catholic?
    A: No, because “catholic” means universal and the Bishop of Rome isn’t universal, therefore while he may be Roman Catholic, he ain’t catholic.

    And I think the proper punchline to Anne’s joke would be “I have good news and bad news. The good news is that, yes–he’s here. The Second Coming has occurred. The bad news? Well . . . He’s having tea at Lambeth Palace.”

    July 17th, 2007 at 2:20 am
  19. Bosco Peters says:

    Thanks for this – an enjoyable, insightful response.
    Another reflection:
    not a proper church

    July 19th, 2007 at 11:08 am
  20. Pluralist says:

    Sorry to be so late to comment, due to my absence of supernatural powers.

    When the Pope writes his judgments infallibly, does he ever make a spelling mistake at the time?

    November 3rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm