However, I strongly believe that Jesus calls us to practise our faith in the wider community by acting justly, learning to make peace, feeding the hungry, providing shelter for the homeless and clean drinking water for those who have none etc.

I don’t think Jesus wants us in holy huddes contemplating our navels and our neighbours’ doctrine – he certainly didn’t mention it if he did.

I really am glad that we agree on so much. Yes it is about relationship and so much of formal religion can obscure that. I worry hugely when the Church formalises things and a ritual which was supposed to remind and enhance that relationship becomes an end in itself. However I think the Christian relationship is vertical and horizontal so it includes God and the community of faith. I think the marks of being in the community are essentially Baptism as the way in and the Eucharist as food for the journey. The end of Mark makes the point about Baptism as the mark of salvation very plainly. I know this part is almost certainly a different author but it has been accepted as part of the canon.
I am aware that for some this ideal (Baptism and Eucharist), for a variety of reasons, is not always achievable. Where possible we should pursue it as I do believe Christ ordained it and therefore should be followed. I guess there we do disagree!
Thanks again Dave for letting us use your blog…you are very patient with us.

I am aware that for some this ideal (Baptism and Eucharist), for a variety of reasons, is not always acheivable. Where possible we should persue it as I do beleive Christ ordained it and therefore should be followed. I guess there we do disagree!

Thanks again Dave for letting us use your blog…you are very patient with us.

Jesus is God incarnate. Many equate the Word of God with Jesus (cf John 1:1)

‘The Word’ and ‘Wisdom’ are not so dissimilar.

If Jesus embodied God’s Word (expression & communication) then he could equally embody God’s Wisdom, just as he embodies God’s Way.

I suggest that living as Jesus lived, which is only possible when we live in relationship with him, responding to his promptings etc, is the only way to God therefore. However, it is not necessary to recognise that the promptings come from Jesus or the Holy Spirit to respond to them.

I have heard sermons that have said just this and think it makes a lot of sense.

We take Communion to commemorate the Last Supper but that doesn’t necessarily mean that is what Jesus intended us to do.

Jesus was baptised because it was an accepted sign of repentance in his day. We carry on that tradition, but did Jesus mean us to?

It seems Pharisees were baptised, but Jesus didn’t think Pharisees were necessarily ‘in’. Jesus thought the, quite probably, unbaptised prostitutes and tax collectors were ‘in’ – or had the potential to be. He is not recorded as baptising anyone or telling anyone to be baptised as a sign of repentance or of anything else, is he?

These traditions arose in the church. They may be perfectly OK and I’m certainly not saying there is anything wrong with them, but they are not proofs of who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’. Just things we people have found helpful down the ages. If they are not done for reasons of genuine faith they are pointless, empty gestures.

However this same Jesus instituted communion and backed baptism. There are clear indication that he did have an in/out model…those who are against me are for me and vice versa e.g. and I am the way the truth and the life wedding feast etc.

We are all reluctant to reject thoroughly decent people whom lead good lives (indeed far better than my own) as not being Christian but that to me is the conclusion of reading the texts. Somebody once said to me “the trouble with my church is they think Christianity is synonymous with niceness” ….there is more to the Christian faith than that.

Chris, what is repentance if not turning from our own selfish ways and starting to do things God’s way?

The parable of the Prodigal Son shows how willing God is to welcome those who turn back to him and his ways. He didn’t require the son to grovel, he didn’t accept him grudgingly as a slave, no he welcomed him with open arms, putting aside his dignity to run to meet him, and restoring him to his proper place as his son.

John’s discourse with Nicodemus – what does born again mean? It involves going God’s way rather than our own. Yes, it also involves a change of heart, but true repentance always does.

Chris Clark…I could go on but there is ample in the gospel to state that we need to repent and believe as well as do things. Put simply I think we are made right by the grace of God through belief and judged by what we do….

But what does it mean to repent and believe.

We are to believe that God’s way is the right way and we repent by doing a ‘u’ turn, no longer going in the direction of society and our selfish desires, but heading out towards Jesus and God’s Way.

God’s grace does indeed help us to change and to keep changing, by which we are made right, and his grace makes up for our shortcomings, too.

What has any of this to do with doctrines and creeds?

How many people try to follow Jesus without wanting anything to do with the church or even calling themselves Christians?

How many people who call themselves Christians ignore God’s promptings to do things his way? Going to church and calling yourself a Christian are not reliable indications that God would recognise you as one of his.

I would suggest that Jesus did not use an in/out paradigm – or at the very least, he overturned the assumptions about who was ‘in’ and who was ‘out’. Publicans, prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, carpenters, the racially impure, the disabled, the sick and other ‘sinners’ were in. There is evidence that a murderer who may not have had a theological thought in his head until the moment he died was ‘in’.

Ultimately, I think we believe in grace and in the concept of not judging. Lines in the sand, ‘correct’ forms of theology, baptism and communion are largely irrelevant – given that man looks at the outward things whilst God looks at the heart.

Thus, whilst the trappings of faith are important and worthy, can build us up and make us whole, we have to realise that this stuff is nothing in itself, and that it is God that decides who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’ not us. Or as someone has said, instead of having a theological line whereby ticking correct boxes means you are ‘in’ and those who don’t are ‘out’, our attitude should be that we are all on a journey. For the Christian, Jesus should be the goal of our journey and the centre of our being. At any given point, we need to decide whether we are actually walking towards or away from our goal – for the direction of movement is more important that where we start from.

On the other hand, nobody speaks for God except God. If someone is saying things and ascribing them to the mouth of God when they put down others on national TV, he should be rebuked. No question.