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March 6th, 2007

Martyn Joseph in kerfuffle with Pat Robertson

Martyn Joseph is a singer who is popular at Greenbelt festival and other such places. Growing up in south Wales I went to his concerts in school halls and churches on quite a few occasions.

Martyn has been in the news this week (Well, the Western Mail and BBC radio Wales) because of a lyric on his latest live album which was recorded at Greenbelt last year. Here is the news report which explains things in more depth.

The lyric is about Pat Robertson, an American TV Evangelist well known for being wrong. One of his latest projects is Pat’s Age-defying Protein Pancakes. I have no idea whether they work or not, but if they have any positive benefits for someone who has ‘come down with something’ then I for one am interested.

As to whether “I’m gonna find me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face” is an acceptable song lyric when sung in an ironic humourous way: I will leave you to decide.

Update: the Radio Wales interview is now available on Martyn Joseph’s website.

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32 Responses to “Martyn Joseph in kerfuffle with Pat Robertson”


  1. ash says:

    Hahaha! i mean ‘oh dear.’

    That was one of the highlights of Greenbelt… all those vicars singing along… hehehe

    March 6th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
  2. Rev Sam says:

    This vicar has been singing along to it rather a lot since discovering Martyn Joseph a couple of months ago – I’m off to see him in Norwich in a couple of weeks.

    March 6th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
  3. Karin says:

    Hee hee. apparently he was on the Richard Evans lunchtime programme on Radio Wales today about 1.30, I’m told http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/radiowales/

    I have no problems singing ‘I’m gonna find me a TV evangelist and punch him in the face’ or any of the other lyrics from ‘I’m a Liberal Backslider’. Didn’t realised they featured in this ‘tribute’ to Pat Robertson. I didn’t think it was his best, but they say all publicity is good publicity.

    March 6th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
  4. mad mazz says:

    Q:Whats black & brown & looks good on the neck of a TV evangelist?
    A: A Rottweiler
    [given to me by a little Scottish lady whose hubby is a minister]

    March 6th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
  5. John Davies says:

    Very restrained of Martyn, I thought. Compared to what Robertson ought to get. But I don’t think he was joking.

    March 6th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
  6. Chris Clark says:

    I suppose I feel saddened by the whole thing. I have become very aware of how damaging disunity is. Both Martyn and Pat Roberston want to follow Christ. They disagree about the way to do this so they metaphorical tear shreds out of one another. I suspect Martyn and Pat are actually both quite good at being wrong as they are not the finished article yet. It seems a pity they can’t meet around Christ and resolve their issues and let God shed his light on thier inadequacies.

    Sounds a bit preachy…sorry …but I think as soon as we take simple sides in complex issues we lose our way.

    March 7th, 2007 at 10:45 am
  7. jody says:

    my friends have released a single called TV Evangelist it’s quite good, imho

    http://www.oktokyo.co.uk/music.php

    click on TV Evangelist – it’s weird, but I like that kind of thing.

    I hadn’t realised that Martyn Joseph was so, well, outspoken. Needs to be said tho’, someone’s got to stop the sickness….

    (altho I do know someone who was healed by God using Benny Hinn over the God Channel, honestly, God using people I don’t approve of tsk….anyone would think he’s slow to judge and abounding in mercy or something.)

    x Jody

    March 7th, 2007 at 11:17 am
  8. David Keen says:

    Is MJ still singing ‘liberal backslider’? I heard that 10 years ago at the last Greenbelt I went to. He must have actually slidden into something by now, unless he’s on a very long and gently sloping gradient.

    March 7th, 2007 at 11:55 am
  9. joe says:

    Actually MJ said rather more than just wishing to punch the aforementioned ‘american’ ‘tv’ ‘evangelist’ in the face.

    At one point he was encouraging the crowd to say two words to the guy, one starting with f and the other ending with f.

    I must say I thought it was quite amusing and appropriate. Pat Robertson is about as right as something-very-left so deserves to be mocked on every occasion.

    There is something very satisfying in telling someone who enjoys pontificating that he is very very wrong – even if he is not there to hear it.

    Chris, unfortunately in the real world we live in, each of us has plenty of reasons to find offense in each other. If Pat wants to continue talking rubbish, he deserves to get what he gives.

    March 7th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
  10. David Keen says:

    Afterthought – if MJ’s been looking for a TV evangelist for at least the last 10 years, and failed, then how does he cope with trickier stuff like car keys? I mean, it’s not as though TV evangelists are a difficult target or anything.

    Have some guts man, stop singing songs about what you’re going to do and just get on with it! You’re as bad as every other Christian I know.

    March 7th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
  11. Helen says:

    Ah yes, I remember that night at Greenbelt. I’m amused by the quote ‘“I wasn’t putting the words of the chorus in God’s mouth or anything.”’ since, as I recall, the words were:

    Mr. Robertson, what have you done?
    When you think you speak for the Son?
    Oh Mr. Robertson what would you do?
    If you stand before God, and God says **** you

    And encouraged the audience to sing the last words, uncensored obviously. Of course I don’t genuinely think that MJ expects God to do that or indeed is going to punch TV evangelists in the face. I took it more as a frustration venting exercise. I’m so frustrated that all people like Robertson seem to do is condemn homosexuals and make outlandish claims about their physical strength. Christianity is surely not the bizarre thing that Robertson presents.

    And though I doubt God is entirely happy with the profanity, I was very amused. For which I ought to immediately repent. I have a special prayer for just this circumstance; “Lord, forgive me my sins, even the ones I enjoyed, and especially the ones that still make me chuckle”.

    March 7th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
  12. Philip of Samaria says:

    Helen: ARE you going to repent? Or is this just more irony?

    March 7th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
  13. joe says:

    I dunno, I suspect that God can cope with the odd bit of anglo-saxon. He is the one who pulls down the proud from their high places, after all.

    March 8th, 2007 at 8:43 am
  14. Kathryn says:

    My only problem with “Liberal Backslider” (apart from the fact that it tends to get stuck in the head, so you’re singing it for days after hearing it) is that my youngest son is an MJ fan too…and as a good little curate, who happens to be a mother too, I’m not entirely sure I should be encouraging him to believe that sort of language is OK for public consumption.
    Helen, that’s an excellent prayer for far too many occasions ;-)

    March 8th, 2007 at 8:47 am
  15. joe says:

    You’re right. Pat Robertson’s language should never be heard in public.

    March 8th, 2007 at 9:46 am
  16. Chris Clark says:

    Dear God,

    I thank you that I am not like other Christians, particularly the ones on the extreme conservative right and certainly not the ones from the US.

    I am concerned about world poverty, green issues and a freely give of my time and money to put these things right. I thank you that I am enlightened and have seen practically all the truth.

    Please help me to beat the opposition in to submission as your Son Jesus would have.

    March 8th, 2007 at 10:23 am
  17. Philip of Samaria says:

    Nice one Chris…

    March 8th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
  18. Karin says:

    Is anyone who preaches hatred rather than love a Christian, whether on the right or left?

    Is saying ‘the sinners’ prayer’ the real measure of who is a Christian or is it their lifestyle based on love of God and fellow human beings?

    March 9th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
  19. Chris Clark says:

    Hard to be sure who is in and out Karin but I am quite sure it is up to God. I prefer to go on objective things the chucrh has recognised fror centuries such as ascent to the creeds and acknowledging Jesus as Lord and King. I don’t know about Mr Robertson but a lot of the conservative “right” would be “in” on this basis.

    Tough as it is I think we have to acknowlege that God might accept people who hold views and behave in ways that we find personally unacceptable. Look at some OT characters such as Jacob and Samson!

    March 9th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
  20. Karin says:

    Goodness! Would Jesus really care more about assent to creeds than practical expressions of love? Isn’t so much of what the church ‘has recognised for centuries’ all about maintaining power, the status quo and control?

    Jesus seemed to be preaching something a tad different.

    Moreover, Jesus said we’d know whether a tree is good by the fruit it bears. I agree we must avoid judgementalism, but I think the church has many people of dubious faith in places of authority and that seems wrong to me.

    March 9th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
  21. Chris Clark says:

    Karin I guess I think the thing that distinguishes the Christian from the thoroughly decent person is something they believe. Obviously the things that Roberston says and does are outrageous and one worries about a faith that does not result in loving actions.

    However what distinguishes a humanist who follows say parts of the Sermon on the Mount and a Christian. Isn’t it things like baptism, communion and belief?

    I have been thinking a lot about who is “in and out” recently. It is a thorny issue and I don’t have all the answers. What I am sure is that it is not just the people who share my bias and outlook…that changes…

    Thanks Dave for letting Karin and I have a chat about these things on your blog…as ever you provoke thought!

    March 10th, 2007 at 10:38 am
  22. Cheeky bunch at Bene Diction Blogs On says:

    [...]  Story at icWales.  The real fun is at Dave Walker’s blog. Apparently the chorus in question goes like this: Mr. Robertson, what have you done? When you think you speak for the Son? Oh Mr. Robertson what would you do? If you stand before God, and God says **** you [...]

    March 11th, 2007 at 3:02 am
  23. Karin says:

    Jesus said ‘if you love me you will obey my commandments’. Maybe the humanist you mention shows more love for Jesus than some Christians. Maybe someone just confused them about who Jesus is – a lot of poeple in churches give out unhelpful messages about Jesus. Some humanists may love Jesus without knowing it. I don’t think Jesus gives two hoots whether or not they are baptised etc.: that stuffs just for us to help us work things out, but it’s not absolute proof of anything.

    March 11th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
  24. Chris Clark says:

    Karin If we just keep to the gospels we have Jesus original message of repentance and faith, The Prodigal Son, the dying thief, John’s discourse with Nicodemus…I could go on but there is ample in the gospel to state that we need to repent and believe as well as do things. Put simply I think we are made right by the grace of God through belief and judged by what we do….

    March 11th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
  25. joe says:

    I think we are talking about two different things here, albeit things that are related.

    I would suggest that Jesus did not use an in/out paradigm – or at the very least, he overturned the assumptions about who was ‘in’ and who was ‘out’. Publicans, prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, carpenters, the racially impure, the disabled, the sick and other ‘sinners’ were in. There is evidence that a murderer who may not have had a theological thought in his head until the moment he died was ‘in’.

    Ultimately, I think we believe in grace and in the concept of not judging. Lines in the sand, ‘correct’ forms of theology, baptism and communion are largely irrelevant – given that man looks at the outward things whilst God looks at the heart.

    Thus, whilst the trappings of faith are important and worthy, can build us up and make us whole, we have to realise that this stuff is nothing in itself, and that it is God that decides who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’ not us. Or as someone has said, instead of having a theological line whereby ticking correct boxes means you are ‘in’ and those who don’t are ‘out’, our attitude should be that we are all on a journey. For the Christian, Jesus should be the goal of our journey and the centre of our being. At any given point, we need to decide whether we are actually walking towards or away from our goal – for the direction of movement is more important that where we start from.

    On the other hand, nobody speaks for God except God. If someone is saying things and ascribing them to the mouth of God when they put down others on national TV, he should be rebuked. No question.

    March 12th, 2007 at 9:44 am
  26. Karin says:

    Exactly, Joe: you put it very well.

    Chris, what is repentance if not turning from our own selfish ways and starting to do things God’s way?

    The parable of the Prodigal Son shows how willing God is to welcome those who turn back to him and his ways. He didn’t require the son to grovel, he didn’t accept him grudgingly as a slave, no he welcomed him with open arms, putting aside his dignity to run to meet him, and restoring him to his proper place as his son.

    John’s discourse with Nicodemus – what does born again mean? It involves going God’s way rather than our own. Yes, it also involves a change of heart, but true repentance always does.

    Chris Clark…I could go on but there is ample in the gospel to state that we need to repent and believe as well as do things. Put simply I think we are made right by the grace of God through belief and judged by what we do….

    But what does it mean to repent and believe.

    We are to believe that God’s way is the right way and we repent by doing a ‘u’ turn, no longer going in the direction of society and our selfish desires, but heading out towards Jesus and God’s Way.

    God’s grace does indeed help us to change and to keep changing, by which we are made right, and his grace makes up for our shortcomings, too.

    What has any of this to do with doctrines and creeds?

    How many people try to follow Jesus without wanting anything to do with the church or even calling themselves Christians?

    How many people who call themselves Christians ignore God’s promptings to do things his way? Going to church and calling yourself a Christian are not reliable indications that God would recognise you as one of his.

    March 12th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
  27. Chris Clark says:

    I agree with huge amounts of what Joe and Karin say. It is all about repenting from our selfish ways and turning to God. It is about accepting the disadvantaged and outcast.

    However this same Jesus instituted communion and backed baptism. There are clear indication that he did have an in/out model…those who are against me are for me and vice versa e.g. and I am the way the truth and the life wedding feast etc.

    We are all reluctant to reject thoroughly decent people whom lead good lives (indeed far better than my own) as not being Christian but that to me is the conclusion of reading the texts. Somebody once said to me “the trouble with my church is they think Christianity is synonymous with niceness” ….there is more to the Christian faith than that.

    March 12th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
  28. Karin says:

    Jesus shared a meal with his friends before he died. He may have meant, whenever you sit down and eat, remember me. Bread and wine were part of a normal meal.

    We take Communion to commemorate the Last Supper but that doesn’t necessarily mean that is what Jesus intended us to do.

    Jesus was baptised because it was an accepted sign of repentance in his day. We carry on that tradition, but did Jesus mean us to?

    It seems Pharisees were baptised, but Jesus didn’t think Pharisees were necessarily ‘in’. Jesus thought the, quite probably, unbaptised prostitutes and tax collectors were ‘in’ – or had the potential to be. He is not recorded as baptising anyone or telling anyone to be baptised as a sign of repentance or of anything else, is he?

    These traditions arose in the church. They may be perfectly OK and I’m certainly not saying there is anything wrong with them, but they are not proofs of who is ‘in’ and who is ‘out’. Just things we people have found helpful down the ages. If they are not done for reasons of genuine faith they are pointless, empty gestures.

    March 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
  29. Karin says:

    As to Jesus being the Way to God:

    Jesus is God incarnate. Many equate the Word of God with Jesus (cf John 1:1)

    ‘The Word’ and ‘Wisdom’ are not so dissimilar.

    If Jesus embodied God’s Word (expression & communication) then he could equally embody God’s Wisdom, just as he embodies God’s Way.

    I suggest that living as Jesus lived, which is only possible when we live in relationship with him, responding to his promptings etc, is the only way to God therefore. However, it is not necessary to recognise that the promptings come from Jesus or the Holy Spirit to respond to them.

    I have heard sermons that have said just this and think it makes a lot of sense.

    March 12th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
  30. Chris Clark says:

    I really am glad that we agree on so much. Yes it is about relationship and so much of formal religion can obscure that. I worry hugely when the Church formalises things and a ritual which was supposed to remind and enhance that relationship becomes an end in itself. However I think the Christian relationship is vertical and horizontal so it includes God and the community of faith. I think the marks of being in the community are essentially Baptism as the way in and the Eucharist as food for the journey. The end of Mark makes the point about Baptism as the mark of salvation very plainly. I know this part is almost certianly a different author but it has been accepted as part of the canon.

    I am aware that for some this ideal (Baptism and Eucharist), for a variety of reasons, is not always acheivable. Where possible we should persue it as I do beleive Christ ordained it and therefore should be followed. I guess there we do disagree!

    Thanks again Dave for letting us use your blog…you are very patient with us.

    March 13th, 2007 at 10:31 am
  31. Chris Clark says:

    typos…

    I really am glad that we agree on so much. Yes it is about relationship and so much of formal religion can obscure that. I worry hugely when the Church formalises things and a ritual which was supposed to remind and enhance that relationship becomes an end in itself. However I think the Christian relationship is vertical and horizontal so it includes God and the community of faith. I think the marks of being in the community are essentially Baptism as the way in and the Eucharist as food for the journey. The end of Mark makes the point about Baptism as the mark of salvation very plainly. I know this part is almost certainly a different author but it has been accepted as part of the canon.
    I am aware that for some this ideal (Baptism and Eucharist), for a variety of reasons, is not always achievable. Where possible we should pursue it as I do believe Christ ordained it and therefore should be followed. I guess there we do disagree!
    Thanks again Dave for letting us use your blog…you are very patient with us.

    March 13th, 2007 at 10:33 am
  32. Karin says:

    Yes, we need fellowship and communion with other Christians to support us and help us grow, and marks of belonging may be useful to some, not least the administrators.

    However, I strongly believe that Jesus calls us to practise our faith in the wider community by acting justly, learning to make peace, feeding the hungry, providing shelter for the homeless and clean drinking water for those who have none etc.

    I don’t think Jesus wants us in holy huddes contemplating our navels and our neighbours’ doctrine – he certainly didn’t mention it if he did.

    March 13th, 2007 at 3:19 pm