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February 21st, 2007

I am the cause of our problems

“…our problems are caused by (in England) the Inclusive Church lot and Fulcrum, people like Maggie Dawn and even dave Walker. They all have this holier than thou attitude and denigrate anyone who shows human emotion or passion. They are the ones who are made into spokesmen/women and later into bishops and archdeacons and so the public don’t get to read about the real pain (on either side) just the insipid deliberations of people who all seem to be called Giles. Why Christians insist on believing the middle way and compromise are somehow inherently more Christian than an impassioned demand for justice at all costs I don’t know. It certainly doesn’t come from the example of Jesus Christ.”

“What I can’t cope with is stalemate where both sides are rendered impotent by a compromise that is never resolved. And sitting there in the middle are all these smug, passionless wimps who have the audacity to feel proud of their inability to form a real, worked out opinion about anything other than their own superiority.”

From the comments following this post.

39 Comments »



This is a single Cartoon Blog entry, posted by Dave on Wednesday, February 21st, 2007 at 8:24 am.

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39 Responses to “I am the cause of our problems”


  1. Rob says:

    Well, there goes the place for considered opinion. Woe betide anyone who doesn’t take a position and drag it to extremes.

    To (mis)quote from Ecclesiates:
    There is a time to hold a hard line and a time for compromise.

    Alternatively:
    Vanity, vanity; all is vanity.

    Giles.

    February 21st, 2007 at 9:22 am
  2. ee says:

    Oooo can we call you Bishop Dave? I do look forward to that day.

    Actually, you don’t even come across as all that middle of the road. You are pro-inclusive church and anti-split. That doesn’t seem a wishy washy middle of the road position to me. And I certainly don’t think your cartooning is smug and self-satisfied about you being in the right.

    February 21st, 2007 at 9:31 am
  3. jody says:

    oh man, some people just need to grow up.

    Since when did the two extremes fighting EVER end in something good?

    And just to make it clear, people like Martin Luther King, Martin Luther and John Wesley ALL decided that the ‘middle line’ was the way of the cross (even Martin Luther, who really was forced to leave) It’s hard – only the passionate can stand it….

    Of course there is a time for standing up and I am so passionate about the body of Christ that I’m even willing to stand up for the goodness of letting people in who are not like me.

    :-P

    February 21st, 2007 at 9:45 am
  4. Christian says:

    Oppps – there goes your job as cartoon bishop!

    February 21st, 2007 at 10:48 am
  5. Richard says:

    Bishop Dave does have a good ring to it…

    As far as I am concerned, being an Inclusive Church is fundamentally anti-split. How can you argue that your Church is Inclusive, if you’re not willing to include everybody – even those who don’t agree with being inclusive.

    You also don’t come across as middle of the road – some of the current Anglican affairs cartoons can be pretty cutting at times – like the Anglican goings on one in the Church times – that bit about the Primates Meeting being the most mature Christians followed by the picture underneath really hit the nail on the head.

    February 21st, 2007 at 10:50 am
  6. Chris Clark says:

    Well as another extreme moderate I find myself tarred with the same brush.

    I feel really passionately that splits in the church are damaging. Jesus prayed that we might be one as the Father and He are one. That’s extremely intimate. Yes of course principle matters but if we can’t agree then we need to seek the mind of God more earnestly.

    February 21st, 2007 at 11:20 am
  7. si says:

    blimey.

    i’ve said this before dave, but i’ve never found you, or anything you’ve posted on this site to be “smug” or “holier-than-thou”. but then maybe that makes me part of the problem too… ;-)

    February 21st, 2007 at 11:56 am
  8. Raspberry Rabbit says:

    Dave,

    I’ve always known you to be the problem. There is a direct line running from Judas Iscariot to the Borgias to the wartime pope to Cardinal Ratzinger to you. It can be demonstrated.

    RR

    February 21st, 2007 at 12:19 pm
  9. Kyle says:

    Haha, I’ll bet you never knew you were so important…

    February 21st, 2007 at 1:00 pm
  10. Chris says:

    “Even Dave Walker” eh??

    Well, Bishop Dave, I don’t think you should take responsibility for all our problems!

    Include me in!!

    February 21st, 2007 at 1:02 pm
  11. Lesley says:

    sounds like this person just wants a reaction from you. do what i do – ignore people like that.

    February 21st, 2007 at 2:00 pm
  12. Karin says:

    I can understand MP’s frustration with ‘stalemate where both sides are rendered impotent by a compromise that is never resolved’.

    I presume he’s talking about the current situation in the ‘Anglican Communion’.

    There are some people in some local churches I disagree with quite strongly. I think it would be good for us to discuss the areas where we disagree more than we do, so long as everyone can stay fairly calm and polite.

    I don’t think having a blazing row and the people in half the churches not speaking to those in the other half would improve anything.

    I don’t have an answer. Some people I know are trying to put their point of view across when they get the opportunity in the hope that over time these people will be won round. There are some people with whom this approach will probably never work, but you never know.

    Christians are called to have faith and to be humble all the while they act as peacemakers and work for justice, without which there can be no true peace, and I do believe we should remember that, while acknowledging it won’t always be easy to do.

    However, I think it grossly unjust to blame Dave and Maggi, aling with Inclusive Church, for the problems in the ‘Anglican Communion’.

    MP’s rants may be very therapeutic for him and even for some of his readers, and I’m not going to knock his blog as it obviously connects with some people.

    Dave’s wry and gentle humour may help some people to see things differently some of the time and the number of positive comments show that a fair number of people connect with Dave’s blog as they also do with Maggi’s gentle and thoughtful approach. They are doing things in their own way and deep down may well be as emotional and passionate as MP, but prefer not to express raw emotion when they write their blogs.

    Changing attitudes takes time, patience and diplomacy, although I agree there are times when some attitudes should not be put up with, but is an angry rant the best way forward?

    February 21st, 2007 at 2:49 pm
  13. PeterD says:

    You can be our bishop! In the Bradford Diocese they are always called David.

    February 21st, 2007 at 2:53 pm
  14. Martha says:

    Ohhhhhh… NOW I know whose fault it is. Finally I’ll be able to get some sleep!

    February 21st, 2007 at 3:23 pm
  15. ruth says:

    Well. I’d never visited the author’s blog before. TBH, I’d decided not to after reading a recent comment by him on this blog, which I thought amounted to an unprovoked and very unkind attack on your character (it was the ‘holier than thou’ accustion, again). However, I must say I’m glad that I followed your link today which took me there. It’s darn good (which means, I suppose, that I share the views expressed on it)!

    BUT. I disagree with the comments that the author makes about you and Maggie. Totally. (I regularly read both of your blogs).

    Dave. Your cartoons are really funny. Not only that, your blog is a breath of fresh air. It would be terrible if every single theological-related blog were totally devoted to ‘the split’, especially given that, in my opnion, it’s nigh on impossible to change an opinion on this issue anyway. (And I’m always glad to be able to visit a theological blog and not find a load of commenting Christians at each others throats)!

    February 21st, 2007 at 4:30 pm
  16. Ben says:

    The young people in our youth group have a rule of always blaming “Dave”. I never knew before that you were the specific “Dave” to blame for all our problems…

    But seriously, if you’re part of the problem, I want to be part of it too. I’ve never found your humour to be denigrating, smug or holier-than-thou – just that of a confused Anglican trying to make sense of his church. Please keep it up!

    February 21st, 2007 at 4:38 pm
  17. Karin says:

    Please don’t be dismissive of MP. He was unfair to Dave, but I’m having an interesting chat with him at the moment and I think he does make some good points as do some of his chums.

    http://revjph.blogspot.com/2007/02/we-all-have-something-of-pharisee.html

    February 21st, 2007 at 5:08 pm
  18. Mary says:

    That doesn’t read like a “real worked out opinion”, more like a personal attack on people who can’t be bothered to argue for just for the sake of arguing.

    Personally, I think we should go for Bishop Maggie and REALLY cause a stir! :D

    February 21st, 2007 at 5:24 pm
  19. Raspberry Rabbit says:

    I rather enjoy his blog too but was quite struck at his need to attack cartoonists. Over at this other blog I visited the blogger has made a series of sudden unprovoked attacks on clowns. Apparently it’s catching: some of the NZ anglican bloggers are now attacking any website featuring soft toys or pastel colours. I don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s all too sad. In Canada they’ve taken down the site devoted to Elmer the Safety Elephant.

    February 21st, 2007 at 5:30 pm
  20. Aaron says:

    +David,

    Yes, it’s the calm and rational and even-headed people who are the problem. What we need is more intolerance and intellectual cruelty and hate. Sigh.

    By the way, if things fall through in Niagara, will you ordain me?

    Yours in Holier Than Thouness,
    Aaron

    February 21st, 2007 at 5:48 pm
  21. Karin says:

    If things fall through in Niagara, won’t the rapids do away with everyone – or will they all be in barrels just in case?

    February 21st, 2007 at 6:24 pm
  22. Mark Bennet says:

    I’m just off to preach on the story of the woman caught in the very act of adultery. Of course the man in the middle of a stoning about to happen just proposed a woolly compromise – except what I’m preaching is that he told both sides to go and sort themselves out and change. Can’t imagine that the potential stonethrowers or the woman like it – but that’s the discipline of Lent: and we have the Holy Spirit to be our guide.
    [Do you think that Jesus was rational and even-handed in this story?]

    February 21st, 2007 at 6:31 pm
  23. Sarah B says:

    Personally I don’t think you’d make a great archdeacon – they have to be pretty organised but I think the pointy hat would look good on both you AND Maggie but maybe ARCHBISHOP Dave would work. David Ebor? Maggie Cantuar? What d’ya think?

    February 21st, 2007 at 10:05 pm
  24. Serena says:

    I think MP picked the wrong people to lash out at …

    February 21st, 2007 at 11:00 pm
  25. MadPriest says:

    Dave
    I have smarting about being looked down on by the smug middle ground since your rant against the passionate a few weeks back. Your readers may have short memories but you don’t – so obviously you enjoy the sympathy. But you were holier than thou and your cartoons do attack ordinary people and the longer the middle tries to stop change the longer my friends will be in pain.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 12:43 am
  26. dave paisley says:

    Well, I’m just glad we’ve pinpointed the problem down to just people called Giles.

    Funny thing, though – there are hardly any of them here in the US.

    Mind you, Georges can be a bit of a problem.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 1:49 am
  27. joe says:

    That’s right, MP.

    Dave is evil and wrong and smug and self-righteous and his work attacks ordinary people.

    Did you ever take Comedy 101? Frankly, it is far easier to take offense at many things on your blog than to make the effort to take offense at Dave’s.

    Like a small child complaining when he doesn’t get all the attention, you’re an example of someone standing at a fairly extreme position who complains when everyone does not immediately jump when you tell them to.

    Blaming the comic is about as low as you can go, quite honestly. Get over yourself.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 8:59 am
  28. Raspberry Rabbit says:

    Is this the reference?

    Link to post entitled ‘Your aggression’

    I assume it is.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 9:14 am
  29. Chris says:

    Really? Is that what this is all about?

    Don’t know what to say really! Daren’t say anything much in the circumstances …

    But on a positive note – I really like the idea of both Dave and Maggi as Bps!!

    February 22nd, 2007 at 12:08 pm
  30. Dave says:

    MadPriest,

    Following the post you refer to I sent you an e-mail attempting to make peace. I did not receive a reply. I don’t know what more I can do.

    I did not mention ‘the passionate’ in my previous post, and I do not know where you get the idea that I am ‘against change’.

    The fact that you insist on continuing to make these allegations about how smug and evil I am has the effect of pushing me further towards the ‘middle ground’ rather than away from it.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 1:44 pm
  31. Caleb says:

    What on earth is the ‘middle ground’? The haven of the coward? Give me good, principled, upstanding, ranting, bigots like David Virtue any day… Them I can understand.

    By the way, Dave, I adore your cartoons. Less waffling about the mythical middle ground, more drawing. ‘Kay?

    February 22nd, 2007 at 3:45 pm
  32. Dave says:

    Caleb – I don’t really know what the ‘middle ground’ is either. It wasn’t me who introduced the term.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 5:06 pm
  33. Philip of Samaria says:

    Dave – rejoice when you are persecuted for righteousness sake.

    You can’t be a bishop in my church but you’d be a peacemaker anywhere

    February 22nd, 2007 at 8:21 pm
  34. Raspberry Rabbit says:

    Cartoonists shouldn’t get into verbal battles with mad priests. They’re cartoonists – they draw. The rest of the folks in the room will pull in close to you like muskoxen defending their young. We will form a ring of prayer around you – we will be your high tower. You just draw cartoons.

    February 22nd, 2007 at 9:10 pm
  35. Dave says:

    RR – Your ring of prayer / high tower combo sounds a bit like a sort of a prison setup. Would I be allowed visitors and toilet breaks?

    February 22nd, 2007 at 9:24 pm
  36. Poppy says:

    Forget ‘Dave for Bishop’ the cry should be ‘Dave for Pope.’

    Passion is a funny thing. Used wisely it gets unjust laws changed, campaigns for those without a voice and brings Christ’s light into the world. Much of the time passion in church is about the little things that really don’t matter such as who is sitting in my pew which I have sat in for 35 years, or why are they singing 3 hymns instead of 4. We spend so much time obsessiog about what goes on in the building that we forget that we are meant to be outside doing the things that Jesus told us to.

    This destructive passion is what Dave is so good at highlighting.

    Keep drawing Dave. Maybe Madpriest is the puppet of all those flower arrangers you upset with your cartoon about the flower festival…..

    February 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 am
  37. Chris says:

    Poppy

    Thanks everso for that – very profound. I’d love to pinch it for a sermon one of these days – probably just before we leave … ;-)

    Dave, keep drawing, keep writing, keep highlighting!!

    February 23rd, 2007 at 4:34 pm
  38. Karin says:

    I rather liked the idea of MadPriest as a closet flower arranger myself – oops, duck the oasis and the misletoe dart. :D

    February 23rd, 2007 at 4:50 pm
  39. Raspberry Rabbit says:

    I know it does Dave. It just really sucks to be people other than me right now. I have got the world arranged perfectly – just perfectly – and in that world you draw, dammit, you draw….you, you, you…..

    *splutter, gag, faint, jerk about*

    February 24th, 2007 at 2:17 pm