Comments on: God’s plan http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/ by Dave Walker Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:16:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-79876 dh Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:46:14 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-79876 I guess I don't believe God created "random events". I also don't believe He left it up to us to figure out the meaning. I believe God has the answer and sometimes it is not for us to figure out 100%. We can get vert close like 90% which gives us a pretty good idea and for me that is enough. All I know is God is good and that all events are part of God's plan except when sin is involved (We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against pricipalities and power and rulers of this dark and present evil age.) I guess for me a bigger question on bad things to good people is 1) do we understand fully what, who, etc. are "good or bad 2) Is this action caused by God, by sin and thus being under the covering of God, satan, judgement for sin by God, redemption for those who are not facing directly the tough situation (survivors), etc. (I might have left out other questions from the bigger picture.) I guess I don’t believe God created “random events”. I also don’t believe He left it up to us to figure out the meaning. I believe God has the answer and sometimes it is not for us to figure out 100%. We can get vert close like 90% which gives us a pretty good idea and for me that is enough. All I know is God is good and that all events are part of God’s plan except when sin is involved (We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against pricipalities and power and rulers of this dark and present evil age.) I guess for me a bigger question on bad things to good people is 1) do we understand fully what, who, etc. are “good or bad 2) Is this action caused by God, by sin and thus being under the covering of God, satan, judgement for sin by God, redemption for those who are not facing directly the tough situation (survivors), etc. (I might have left out other questions from the bigger picture.)

]]> By: Philip of Samaria http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-79095 Philip of Samaria Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:50:48 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-79095 You can tell some of liked this cartooon Dave - can't leave it alone! You can tell some of liked this cartooon Dave – can’t leave it alone!

]]> By: Philip of Samaria http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-79094 Philip of Samaria Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:50:21 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-79094 Perhaps there is absolutely no protection from God on 'accidents' but on the other hand what he's provided is a vast canvas of possibility AND he made us so we could contrue this as possibly good despite evidence that its just random and thus bring meaning to creation. Maybe he made us to create the meaning? So its no coincidence if I choose it to be meaningful and in chosing that maybe I push with the grain of creation. Perhaps there is absolutely no protection from God on ‘accidents’ but on the other hand what he’s provided is a vast canvas of possibility AND he made us so we could contrue this as possibly good despite evidence that its just random and thus bring meaning to creation. Maybe he made us to create the meaning? So its no coincidence if I choose it to be meaningful and in chosing that maybe I push with the grain of creation.

]]> By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78925 dh Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:55:43 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78925 "I guess my point is that I don’t see God as “doing” bad things to us as part of a big plan." You acknowledge that our understanding of "good and bad" is not able to be understood in "But you are certainly correct in that our understanding of good and bad is so hopelessly muddled by our sin (separation) from God. God’s ways are not our own, for sure." So some, not all, could be part of a greater plan; judgement for sin while we are on earth, for those who are alive to see the power of God and receive Christ by the Fear of God, etc. However, you are correct "God suffers when we suffer, God suffers _because_ we suffer. And the God of Jesus is with us in our suffering." I guess my point that we somewhat agree on is not all suffering is bad and not all suffering is good. It is when we project what appears to bad when in all reality it is good and say it is bad that we sometimes "miss the point" of what God is truly doing in the world. You say this "I guess my point is that I don’t see God as “doing” bad things to us as part of a big plan." I agree but do we truly understand what is "bad and good" from God's perspective? That is the long and the short of this response which is way too long and could have been written with much less words. :) “I guess my point is that I don’t see God as “doing” bad things to us as part of a big plan.” You acknowledge that our understanding of “good and bad” is not able to be understood in “But you are certainly correct in that our understanding of good and bad is so hopelessly muddled by our sin (separation) from God. God’s ways are not our own, for sure.” So some, not all, could be part of a greater plan; judgement for sin while we are on earth, for those who are alive to see the power of God and receive Christ by the Fear of God, etc. However, you are correct “God suffers when we suffer, God suffers _because_ we suffer. And the God of Jesus is with us in our suffering.” I guess my point that we somewhat agree on is not all suffering is bad and not all suffering is good. It is when we project what appears to bad when in all reality it is good and say it is bad that we sometimes “miss the point” of what God is truly doing in the world.

You say this “I guess my point is that I don’t see God as “doing” bad things to us as part of a big plan.” I agree but do we truly understand what is “bad and good” from God’s perspective? That is the long and the short of this response which is way too long and could have been written with much less words. :)

]]> By: Brian http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78903 Brian Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:55:24 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78903 dh, thanks for your thoughtful response. I guess my point is that I don't see God as "doing" bad things to us as part of a big plan. God does not want to see us suffer, any more than she wanted to see Jesus suffer. It is our choices that cause suffering. I simply cannot believe in a God who acts "ex machina" to fulfill some divine project, causing floods and famines along the way. God is good all the time, and all the time God is good. But you are certainly correct in that our understanding of good and bad is so hopelessly muddled by our sin (separation) from God. God's ways are not our own, for sure. God suffers when we suffer, God suffers _because_ we suffer. And the God of Jesus is with us in our suffering. Suffering certainly can be redemptive. Parents often have to see their children suffer (or even inflict suffering on them) in order to help them mature, or for their own good. We are of course like children to the Creator. I'm not quite sure what I'm saying here, other than blessings to you. dh, thanks for your thoughtful response.

I guess my point is that I don’t see God as “doing” bad things to us as part of a big plan. God does not want to see us suffer, any more than she wanted to see Jesus suffer. It is our choices that cause suffering.

I simply cannot believe in a God who acts “ex machina” to fulfill some divine project, causing floods and famines along the way. God is good all the time, and all the time God is good. But you are certainly correct in that our understanding of good and bad is so hopelessly muddled by our sin (separation) from God. God’s ways are not our own, for sure.

God suffers when we suffer, God suffers _because_ we suffer. And the God of Jesus is with us in our suffering.

Suffering certainly can be redemptive. Parents often have to see their children suffer (or even inflict suffering on them) in order to help them mature, or for their own good. We are of course like children to the Creator.

I’m not quite sure what I’m saying here, other than blessings to you.

]]> By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78882 dh Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:51:17 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78882 Brian, I see your post here and I agree. However, I tend to focus on the "bad things happen to good people" on our limited understanding of what actually is "good and bad". God is omnipotent and we have free will at the same time. I know in the natural this seems strange but in God's diminision and understanding it isn't. This I wrote earlier was a restatemnet of an encouragement for me "True we do know the rain falls on the good and the bad but that is seperate from “plans” and perfect will. Who knows maybe the rain on the bad is because God is seeking repentence from those who are bad and therefore His ways are greater than our ways? When we look beyond our little humaness and life and look at all of the posibilities of God’s purposes it helps to understand how truly God is and how are understanding of “good and bad” get so messed up. Sometimes on the surface things are actually bad when they appear humannly good and vice versa. The point is looking at the big picture outside of our own reality and onto God’s reality which is truly greater than our own." January 10th, 2007 at 5:23 pm Brian, I see your post here and I agree. However, I tend to focus on the “bad things happen to good people” on our limited understanding of what actually is “good and bad”. God is omnipotent and we have free will at the same time. I know in the natural this seems strange but in God’s diminision and understanding it isn’t.

This I wrote earlier was a restatemnet of an encouragement for me “True we do know the rain falls on the good and the bad but that is seperate from “plans” and perfect will. Who knows maybe the rain on the bad is because God is seeking repentence from those who are bad and therefore His ways are greater than our ways? When we look beyond our little humaness and life and look at all of the posibilities of God’s purposes it helps to understand how truly God is and how are understanding of “good and bad” get so messed up. Sometimes on the surface things are actually bad when they appear humannly good and vice versa. The point is looking at the big picture outside of our own reality and onto God’s reality which is truly greater than our own.”

January 10th, 2007 at 5:23 pm

]]> By: Thoughts from the Wonderwall » Blog Archive » God’s plan http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78860 Thoughts from the Wonderwall » Blog Archive » God’s plan Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:34:12 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78860 Trackback Trackback

]]> By: Philip of Samaria http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78846 Philip of Samaria Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:56:34 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78846 Brian - I'm more struggling with 'why do things happen' and is there a specific meaning to my individual life and if so do I have anything to do with creating it (I think yes). Sarah - keeping eyes on Jesus - yes. In terms of bibilical principles fine, but I kind of think I hear a voice sometimes and that's actually been, like for Steve, quite confusing at times yet its central to what I think of a Jesus being alive. Brian – I’m more struggling with ‘why do things happen’ and is there a specific meaning to my individual life and if so do I have anything to do with creating it (I think yes).

Sarah – keeping eyes on Jesus – yes. In terms of bibilical principles fine, but I kind of think I hear a voice sometimes and that’s actually been, like for Steve, quite confusing at times yet its central to what I think of a Jesus being alive.

]]> By: Brian http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78764 Brian Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:24:35 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78764 Of course part of what we're wrestling with here is the theodicy problem -- why do bad things happen to good people? Is it part of God's plan? If so, what kind of god is this God? Part of this stems from the notion that God is omnipotent, and therefore God, for example, chooses not to act to save the drowning child. We rationalize this by saying "this must be part of God's plan". C.S. Lewis approaches this a little differently (in "The Problem of Pain"), by saying that God's gift to humankind of free will means that God can't do a thing and its opposite at the same time -- it is our original Fall that creates suffering in the world, and it is through the possibility of choice that we can be redeemed. If God were to nullify the potential for negative consequences moment by moment then our free will would be meaningless. So there's suffering in the world, but the possibility of hope and transformation. Much of this resonates for me. My sense is that God is, in the words of my pastor, "short on protection and long on support". Of course part of what we’re wrestling with here is the theodicy problem — why do bad things happen to good people? Is it part of God’s plan? If so, what kind of god is this God?

Part of this stems from the notion that God is omnipotent, and therefore God, for example, chooses not to act to save the drowning child. We rationalize this by saying “this must be part of God’s plan”.

C.S. Lewis approaches this a little differently (in “The Problem of Pain”), by saying that God’s gift to humankind of free will means that God can’t do a thing and its opposite at the same time — it is our original Fall that creates suffering in the world, and it is through the possibility of choice that we can be redeemed. If God were to nullify the potential for negative consequences moment by moment then our free will would be meaningless. So there’s suffering in the world, but the possibility of hope and transformation.

Much of this resonates for me. My sense is that God is, in the words of my pastor, “short on protection and long on support”.

]]> By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/comment-page-1/#comment-78674 dh Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:24:35 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2007/01/08/gods-plan/#comment-78674 However Sarah, I do appreciate this and your attitude so stay close to Jesus :) "I guess we just keep our eyes happily on Jesus, not worry about it, and just try not to fall off the narrow road wherever it may meander." That is so true. :) However Sarah, I do appreciate this and your attitude so stay close to Jesus :) “I guess we just keep our eyes happily on Jesus, not worry about it, and just try not to fall off the narrow road wherever it may meander.” That is so true. :)

]]>