Comments on: How a chain of evangelistic carpet shops could help the Episcopal church http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/ by Dave Walker Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:58:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Unordered http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76783 Unordered Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:43:01 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76783 Perhaps St Stephens Orthodox Trust could buy the church buildings;-) Perhaps St Stephens Orthodox Trust could buy the church buildings;-)

]]> By: Tiffer http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76779 Tiffer Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:19:50 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76779 I repent of my Tom Butler post. (But only cause I think he's a dude) I repent of my Tom Butler post.

(But only cause I think he’s a dude)

]]> By: ellen http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76762 ellen Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:50:22 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76762 our pcc's are always on Thursdays...perhaps we should decide which night is best for the most number of people before we decide what is on the agenda? Just a thought. our pcc’s are always on Thursdays…perhaps we should decide which night is best for the most number of people before we decide what is on the agenda? Just a thought.

]]> By: Michelle http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76751 Michelle Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:38:51 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76751 This reminds me of a scene from Victoria Woods' 'Dinnerladies' where they're talking about the old church building at the end of the road that became a carpet shop. But it was about to close to be taken over by fundamentalist Christians! The classic quote being something along the lines of*, "It's all very well them singing** and making friends with Jesus, but we'll have to go miles to get a carpet now!" *as close as I can (obsessively) remember it! **or is it praying...? This reminds me of a scene from Victoria Woods’ ‘Dinnerladies’ where they’re talking about the old church building at the end of the road that became a carpet shop. But it was about to close to be taken over by fundamentalist Christians! The classic quote being something along the lines of*, “It’s all very well them singing** and making friends with Jesus, but we’ll have to go miles to get a carpet now!”
*as close as I can (obsessively) remember it!
**or is it praying…?

]]> By: Chris Clark http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76750 Chris Clark Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:26:51 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76750 I fear the real problem is that people vote with their feet if they don't like what is going on. This may just be a few individuals or in certain cases whole Anglican congregations. This has happened in the past and may well happen in the future. It seems almost to be a repeat of the house church movement of the 70s and 80s. I believe in the Episcopal system as the least worse on offer. It is far from perfect but I am convinced the splintering effect of individualism is far worse. In my view it is impossible to discern a system of governance purely from the NT and the early and painful birth pangs of the church should not be infinitely repeated. However we appear to be determined to do so :-( I fear the real problem is that people vote with their feet if they don’t like what is going on. This may just be a few individuals or in certain cases whole Anglican congregations. This has happened in the past and may well happen in the future. It seems almost to be a repeat of the house church movement of the 70s and 80s.

I believe in the Episcopal system as the least worse on offer. It is far from perfect but I am convinced the splintering effect of individualism is far worse. In my view it is impossible to discern a system of governance purely from the NT and the early and painful birth pangs of the church should not be infinitely repeated. However we appear to be determined to do so :-(

]]> By: DGus http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76736 DGus Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:51:41 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76736 Paul is right (in #11)--sort of. I cited the wrong subsection of 57-9. The correct subsection is (A), which reads: "If a division ... shall hereafter occur in a church or religious society, to which any such congregation whose property is held by trustees is attached, the members of such congregation over 18 years of age may, by a vote of a majority of the whole number, determine to which branch of the church or society such congregation shall thereafter belong. Such determination ... shall be conclusive as to the title to and control of any property held in trust for such congregation, and be respected and enforced accordingly in all of the courts of the Commonwealth." I.e., same deal in a hierarchical church. Quite apart from the "division" statute, the Falls Chuch holds title to all its property. The Episcopal canons do indeed claim diocesan and denominational control of congregational property (i.e., ECUSA declared itself the owner of others' property), but that's not the same as when an owner declares a trust and gives, to another person, a beneficial interest in something he owns. Virginia law doesn't care for such pseudo-trusts, and Virginia is unlikely to enforce religious rules of spiritual property principles against good old-fashioned you-can-look-it-up property law, pursuant to which you tell who owns the property by seeing whose name is on the deed. Paul is right (in #11)–sort of. I cited the wrong subsection of 57-9. The correct subsection is (A), which reads: “If a division … shall hereafter occur in a church or religious society, to which any such congregation whose property is held by trustees is attached, the members of such congregation over 18 years of age may, by a vote of a majority of the whole number, determine to which branch of the church or society such congregation shall thereafter belong. Such determination … shall be conclusive as to the title to and control of any property held in trust for such congregation, and be respected and enforced accordingly in all of the courts of the Commonwealth.” I.e., same deal in a hierarchical church.

Quite apart from the “division” statute, the Falls Chuch holds title to all its property. The Episcopal canons do indeed claim diocesan and denominational control of congregational property (i.e., ECUSA declared itself the owner of others’ property), but that’s not the same as when an owner declares a trust and gives, to another person, a beneficial interest in something he owns. Virginia law doesn’t care for such pseudo-trusts, and Virginia is unlikely to enforce religious rules of spiritual property principles against good old-fashioned you-can-look-it-up property law, pursuant to which you tell who owns the property by seeing whose name is on the deed.

]]> By: George http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76728 George Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:29:34 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76728 The Falls Church already bought the building housing the Roman Catholic uniform shop, the Halal Market, the Chinese restaurant, the Persian Bakery, and the Kurdish Refugee Restaurant. Then expelled them all. The Falls Church already bought the building housing the Roman Catholic uniform shop, the Halal Market, the Chinese restaurant, the Persian Bakery, and the Kurdish Refugee Restaurant. Then expelled them all.

]]> By: Tired&Emotional http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76707 Tired&Emotional Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:32:11 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76707 Personally I think its time we had an inquisition. Let's root out all these backsliding backsliders and get back to our true Christian roots. I'm not sure what these are but it sounds good.... Personally I think its time we had an inquisition. Let’s root out all these backsliding backsliders and get back to our true Christian roots.

I’m not sure what these are but it sounds good….

]]> By: Paul (A.) http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76705 Paul (A.) Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:17:53 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76705 DGus is misinformed or lies about Virginia law: Section 57-9(b) does not apply by its terms to Episcopal parishes: "If a division has heretofore occurred or shall hereafter occur in a congregation whose property is held by trustees which, in its organization and government, is a church or society entirely independent of any other church or general society, a majority of the members of such congregation, entitled to vote by its constitution as existing at the time of the division, or where it has no written constitution, entitled to vote by its ordinary practice or custom, may decide the right, title, and control of all property held in trust for such congregation. Their decision shall be reported to such court, and if approved by it, shall be so entered as aforesaid, and shall be final as to such right of property so held." Episcopal parishes are not "entirely independent of any other church or general society" but are bound under the diocesan constitution to the diocese and to the constitution and canons of the diocese. Diocese of Virginia canon 15(1) fairly explicitly states: "All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Church or Mission within this Diocese is held in trust for The Episcopal Church and the Diocese of Virginia." DGus is misinformed or lies about Virginia law: Section 57-9(b) does not apply by its terms to Episcopal parishes: “If a division has heretofore occurred or shall hereafter occur in a congregation whose property is held by trustees which, in its organization and government, is a church or society entirely independent of any other church or general society, a majority of the members of such congregation, entitled to vote by its constitution as existing at the time of the division, or where it has no written constitution, entitled to vote by its ordinary practice or custom, may decide the right, title, and control of all property held in trust for such congregation. Their decision shall be reported to such court, and if approved by it, shall be so entered as aforesaid, and shall be final as to such right of property so held.” Episcopal parishes are not “entirely independent of any other church or general society” but are bound under the diocesan constitution to the diocese and to the constitution and canons of the diocese.

Diocese of Virginia canon 15(1) fairly explicitly states: “All real and personal property held by or for the benefit of any Church or Mission within this Diocese is held in trust for The Episcopal Church and the Diocese of Virginia.”

]]> By: DGus http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/comment-page-1/#comment-76702 DGus Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:32:59 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/12/19/how-a-chain-of-evangelistic-carpet-shops-could-help-the-episcopal-church/#comment-76702 I think you really have to decide WHICH criticism you're going to make, and then stick with it. You can say (like the cartoon): + The vicar is really a dictator, and these sheep in the pews are just blindly following his bidding--and that's bad. OR you can say (like the comment): + Democracy has no place in church decisions, and the duly appointed leaders SHOULD be th eones to make the decisions. But you can't make BOTH those criticisms simultaneously. Can you? In any event, if you are inclined to blame these churches for deciding to hold a congregational vote, you might want to know (a) that the Diocese published and "supported" a Protocol that called on them to take a congregational vote (and looked for a 70% supermajority, which was obvioualy satisfied), and (b) that Virginia Code sec. 57-9(b) provideds that "a majority of the members of such congregation ... may decide the right, title, and control of all property." I think you really have to decide WHICH criticism you’re going to make, and then stick with it. You can say (like the cartoon):

+ The vicar is really a dictator, and these sheep in the pews are just blindly following his bidding–and that’s bad.

OR you can say (like the comment):

+ Democracy has no place in church decisions, and the duly appointed leaders SHOULD be th eones to make the decisions.

But you can’t make BOTH those criticisms simultaneously. Can you?

In any event, if you are inclined to blame these churches for deciding to hold a congregational vote, you might want to know (a) that the Diocese published and “supported” a Protocol that called on them to take a congregational vote (and looked for a 70% supermajority, which was obvioualy satisfied), and (b) that Virginia Code sec. 57-9(b) provideds that “a majority of the members of such congregation … may decide the right, title, and control of all property.”

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