The argument over whether Jesus loves them is futile; Jesus loves everyone, he died for ALL. Jesus wasn’t messy; (this is my son with whom I am well pleased) he mixed with the messy, ate with the messy, loved the messy, but best of all, forgave the messy. The bible isn’t just about love, it is also about mercy and grace, and heaven forbid we forget this, because we ALL are in need of Gods mercy and grace.

Now I know its not particularly easy for homosexuals as seeking a leadership role in the church calls for abstinence from certain sexual behaviours, but I do know of heterosexual males in the church who have abstained from marriage because they felt this is what God is asking of them. Homosexuals talk about a plutonic love for each other; but what kind of love is it and is it right? Since becoming a Christian myself I have found an unexpected deep love for my brothers in Christ, but this doesn’t mean that I want to jump into bed with them. I have also found this same deep love for my sisters in Christ, but here I have to be a little more careful in that expression and be mindful that it doesn’t grow into uncontrolled lust. True, at least I have the luxury of a loving wife to satisfy my sexual needs. Warning, don’t read on if you are uncomfortable with sexually explicit language.

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Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbour as you love yourself. This is the greatest command. Of all the commands it is the hardest, I wonder why?

Love and grace to you all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours.
Praise God.

2. Will this be available for other bloggers to use via We Blog Cartoons?

Essentially whenever one of these kicks off, it just goes round in circles, and invariably ends up with attempts by the conservative side to use quotes from the books of the bible, as a weapon to verbally beat the other side.

Then just to really rub it in we get pious comments like “please don’t shoot me – I’m just the messenger”.

What frustrates me is that all this Bible quoting just goes to show how little of the liberal/progressive position they understand. Like most people on the liberal side I know exactly what the verses say, and quoting them back at me endlessly won’t make a jot of difference compared to the time I’ve taken over those verses in the past. All it does is annoy me, and I guess lead to the seemingly frustrated multiple posting by them in a vain attempt to try and ‘win’ the argument. I have to say that on my own blog of late I’ve tended to try and cut off these discussions before they start.

Dave sums up my position pretty well:

The writers of the Bible lived in a different time, a different place, a different culture and were writing to people in specific situations. If we think we can read the Bible without doing a lot of hard work to find out what was being said and thinking very carefully about how to apply it then I think we could easily come to some dubious conclusions.

Dave – I hope you don’t mind, I’ve added what I think is an important emphasis to that.

I’m generally very pleased with the way debate has been conducted on these issues by the way. Thanks to everyone for being so polite.

Karin: To echo something Davo and Judah have said. My own experience of living amongst those of a conservative disposition on these matters is that ‘hatred’ is very rarely a motivation for or result of the evangelical viewpoint. Those who hold to the conservative point of view do so because they genuinely want to follow the truth as they understand it.

Davo: I think to characterise all liberals as those for whom ‘modern sensibilities / feelings’ are the ultimate authority is a little unfair. Many liberals love the Bible and do hold to it’s ‘authority’ (though would not use that phrase). However, their genuine desire to make sense of the text and apply it to their lives today leads them to different conclusions to yours.

I also, like augustus, struggle with the phrase ‘a plain reading of the text’ of scripture. The writers of the Bible lived in a different time, a different place, a different culture and were writing to people in specific situations. If we think we can read the Bible without doing a lot of hard work to find out what was being said and thinking very carefully about how to apply it then I think we could easily come to some dubious conclusions.

But then I know that as evangelicals you know that. I’ve been to more of your Tuesday night Bible studies than all of you put together.

See them hills? Me run.

The lack of a middle ground is pertaining to the authority of Scripture, and to issues of ordination – that of women, and that of practising homosexuals. In regard to that of women, especially their ordination as bishops, there is a concern around valid apostolic succession which worries quite a few folks as well.
Where is the middle ground?
In practical terms, either the Church goes ahead and ordains, or that it does not. How can it do both? And if there was a way that both situations could co-exist, could it really hold to two such positions and not suffer for being the dissociative body it would become?
I know that ++Rowan has mooted a structure that is an attempt to address that dual state, but then the Church would be existing in a split state over matters as fundamental as the authority of Scripture, a breach of Tradition, and further vulnerability to the politics of secular philosophies.

Davo expresses my position too in his post above, and does so with humility and love.
I keep wanting to say to folks “please don’t shoot me – I’m just the messenger” as the wrongful accusations of homophobia are hurled.

Karin, this is all about holiness and love for God and each other. God wants us to live holy lives and to do so, we are to obey His commands and resist the temptation to sin. When a fellow Christian persists in a sinful lifestyle, can you – knowing that the wages of sin are death – not lovingly draw their attention to your concern for them? Or is it more loving to say “Oh, that’s OK. God probably won’t mind. And it has nothing to do with me really.” The Apostle Paul writes to the church in Galatia about their sinfulness and what must be done to restore the errant one – Galatians 6. Also, Proverbs 27: 5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.
This is not petty-mindedness, disapproval and hate, etc. It is about what is written in Scripture for us all to know and to follow.
Living a holy life means reflecting God’s own holy character by obedience to Him and following Christ’s two great commandments to love.

But I have already said enough and will leave it there.

Two points. Judah, you have said several times that there is ‘no middle ground’. I still don’t agree I’m afraid. How about a situation where I accept that you have a different view from mine, but that we agree on the essentials, perhaps defined by the creeds of the church. You on the other hand accept that I have a different view from yours, but that we agree on the essentials, perhaps defined by the creeds of the church.

That is the situation as it exits today in large parts of the Anglican church, where Evangelicals, Liberals, Charismatics, Anglo-Catholics and goodness knows who else accept that they don’t agree on the details but are part of the same church.

Rob, I absolutely agree with you, I really do. But there still remains the necessity to decide how we are to approach those who disagree with us. But I’m sure you realise that. I’ll be quiet now.

The debate has always been about this; do you:

a) assume the Bible is the ultimate authority for Christians (and therefore conclude, from a plain reading of the text, that homosexuality is wrong)

or b) assume that our modern sensibilities / feelings are the ultimate authority for a Christian (and therefore conclude that any part of the Bible that appears to disagree with that should be ‘reinterpreted’ to fit).

It always saddens me when I hear the view that homosexuality is wrong being instantly equated with hatred; that saying that homosexuality is right is instantly equated with love. The bible has clear examples of *loving correction* for those whose actions are wrong (which is not to say there are not examples of hatred of practising homosexuals, but simply to ask that disagreement and hatred are not immediately linked).

Besides, ‘do whatever you feel like if it doesn’t harm others’ sounds more like indifference, not love.

Sorry if anything I’ve said upsets anyone – please remember that I too am *searching* for the best way to serve God faithfully.

Why can’t we just all concentrate on loving God through loving his creation and loving our fellow human beings as we love ourselves, knowing ourselves loved, accepted and forgiven by God.

Why the need for exclusion and hate and disapproval?. Why bring Christianity down to the level of human petty mindedness? Let’s keep it holy and an aspiration to be like Jesus the Messy Messiah, who didn’t conform to human expectation or prejudice.