Comments on: The breakup of the Anglican church http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/ by Dave Walker Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:34:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Mike Smith (questions!) http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-49283 Mike Smith (questions!) Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:06:45 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-49283 I'm not a christian, but I am interested in religion (as it still is a big part of the world, especially with fundamentalism on the increase all over the place). Some Christians (say they) believe <b>everything</b> in the bible. Others believe parts of the bible. Those who believe parts: How do you decide which parts to believe? Is it just the parts about Jesus? Or do you not believe in some of the miracles either? Those who believe all the bible, surely they <i>have</i> to be against homosexual vicars? As it does appear to say that in the bible... (The most confusing part for me is how can this text be considered to be <i>completely</i> right?) I often spend time grappling with ethical issues, so it seems alien to have a book tell me what is right/wrong. I rely on the morality built inside me (from upbringing and evolving as a social animal). What are the 'liberal' Christians among you basing your decisions on; if you're saying that homosexuality isn't wrong? Surely if you're still basing them on the Bible, that implies a contradiction in the Bible? Please explain! -- from a confused agnostic. (PS I believe that gay and straight should be treated equally in society, but as I'm not part of the church I can't really say what you should do, with your very different belief system). I’m not a christian, but I am interested in religion (as it still is a big part of the world, especially with fundamentalism on the increase all over the place). Some Christians (say they) believe everything in the bible. Others believe parts of the bible.

Those who believe parts: How do you decide which parts to believe? Is it just the parts about Jesus? Or do you not believe in some of the miracles either?

Those who believe all the bible, surely they have to be against homosexual vicars? As it does appear to say that in the bible…
(The most confusing part for me is how can this text be considered to be completely right?)

I often spend time grappling with ethical issues, so it seems alien to have a book tell me what is right/wrong. I rely on the morality built inside me (from upbringing and evolving as a social animal). What are the ‘liberal’ Christians among you basing your decisions on; if you’re saying that homosexuality isn’t wrong? Surely if you’re still basing them on the Bible, that implies a contradiction in the Bible?

Please explain!
– from a confused agnostic. (PS I believe that gay and straight should be treated equally in society, but as I’m not part of the church I can’t really say what you should do, with your very different belief system).

]]> By: Joel http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-35281 Joel Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:16:37 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-35281 Having said that, I think Richard's point is a very good one with regard to the real and important message of the cartoons. Furthermore I think that those of the conservative/traditional/evangelical wing would do well to leave the anglican communion or push for disestablishment, even though they make up the majority of practicing anglicans. To be honest, I don't think there's much of a future for the anglican church, and there's not an eternity either. There will be no anglican church in heaven - just saints. Let others keep the very-hard-to-maintain buildings if they want them: they will hinder, not help, the spread of the gospel. Leave behind the hymn books, the number boards, the roods, the organs, the bells, the ropes, the pulpits, the liturgy and the crumbling rooves of the lovely monuments some people call churches. Most of these things are irrelevant to our times and all of them are irrelevant to the eternal kingdom/family to which those who believe in Christ belong. Having said that, I think Richard’s point is a very good one with regard to the real and important message of the cartoons. Furthermore I think that those of the conservative/traditional/evangelical wing would do well to leave the anglican communion or push for disestablishment, even though they make up the majority of practicing anglicans. To be honest, I don’t think there’s much of a future for the anglican church, and there’s not an eternity either. There will be no anglican church in heaven – just saints. Let others keep the very-hard-to-maintain buildings if they want them: they will hinder, not help, the spread of the gospel. Leave behind the hymn books, the number boards, the roods, the organs, the bells, the ropes, the pulpits, the liturgy and the crumbling rooves of the lovely monuments some people call churches. Most of these things are irrelevant to our times and all of them are irrelevant to the eternal kingdom/family to which those who believe in Christ belong.

]]> By: Joel http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-35274 Joel Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:01:51 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-35274 I know what Judah means, and I know that those who don't are unlikely to come around. I think focussing on the light and dark theme is nit-picking. The point is that some believe and rely on the gospel of Christ, and the Word of God, and others don't. Those who don't can be said to be in darkness (even if it is only temporarily), because they have not accepted Christ. This is not a judgement on anyone in particular, because only God sees the heart - and only He will judge (when all is said and done). This is not a schism over doctrine - as in the case of Agustus' Africans. I passionately dislike dogmatism, and I agree that is better to be bound together in the spirit of unity, whilst being as diverse in our opinions as the rainbow is in colours. But this issue goes beyond doctrine: it is a case of accepting or rejecting the gospel of Christ - or at least the argument underlying it is. I know what Judah means, and I know that those who don’t are unlikely to come around. I think focussing on the light and dark theme is nit-picking. The point is that some believe and rely on the gospel of Christ, and the Word of God, and others don’t. Those who don’t can be said to be in darkness (even if it is only temporarily), because they have not accepted Christ. This is not a judgement on anyone in particular, because only God sees the heart – and only He will judge (when all is said and done). This is not a schism over doctrine – as in the case of Agustus’ Africans. I passionately dislike dogmatism, and I agree that is better to be bound together in the spirit of unity, whilst being as diverse in our opinions as the rainbow is in colours. But this issue goes beyond doctrine: it is a case of accepting or rejecting the gospel of Christ – or at least the argument underlying it is.

]]> By: Richard http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-33711 Richard Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:46:25 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-33711 People may think that what Dave has drawn trivialises the current situation, but fundamentally, this is <em>exactly</em> what will happen, and what is already happening in parts of the US. The reality of the split will come down to property, pensions, and really stupid things like Dave has drawn if it is congregations splitting up, essentially it will be just like any other divorce. Why do you think that there is an argument in some of the US diocese over who is the 'real' Episcopal Church? Because whoever is the real Episcopal Church gets to keep the big things like the buildings, as they are the property of the diocese and the others leave and have to start again from scratch. Also take note how everybody who is pushing is pushing to throw somebody else <em>out</em>, very few talk about leaving themselves. People may think that what Dave has drawn trivialises the current situation, but fundamentally, this is exactly what will happen, and what is already happening in parts of the US. The reality of the split will come down to property, pensions, and really stupid things like Dave has drawn if it is congregations splitting up, essentially it will be just like any other divorce.

Why do you think that there is an argument in some of the US diocese over who is the ‘real’ Episcopal Church? Because whoever is the real Episcopal Church gets to keep the big things like the buildings, as they are the property of the diocese and the others leave and have to start again from scratch. Also take note how everybody who is pushing is pushing to throw somebody else out, very few talk about leaving themselves.

]]> By: John http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-33578 John Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:51:17 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-33578 In the 5th century St Augustine was faced with Christians in Africa who wanted to cut themselves off from others who didn't come up their doctrinal standards. He argued that schism is worse than heresy because schism is about abandoning the commandment to love one another as Christ has loved us. It does not neeed more than a superfical reading of the Gospels to see that it was the enemies of Christ, the Pharisees, who put the letter of scripture ahead of the love and compassion that Jesus demonstrated. I think that the Anglican church is most like Jesus when it is open and inclusive and allows the Spirit to guide individuals and communities towards the truth. In the 5th century St Augustine was faced with Christians in Africa who wanted to cut themselves off from others who didn’t come up their doctrinal standards. He argued that schism is worse than heresy because schism is about abandoning the commandment to love one another as Christ has loved us.
It does not neeed more than a superfical reading of the Gospels to see that it was the enemies of Christ, the Pharisees, who put the letter of scripture ahead of the love and compassion that Jesus demonstrated.
I think that the Anglican church is most like Jesus when it is open and inclusive and allows the Spirit to guide individuals and communities towards the truth.

]]> By: Sophie http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-33394 Sophie Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:09:07 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-33394 I'm still with augustus here. I'm very confused about those in the 'light' and those in the 'dark'. Surely we're all in the 'dark', since we <i>aren't</i> all perfect. Surely God is the only one in the light, as he is perfect. However, on the other hand, we are all surely in the light as Jesus is with us all and he loves us all. So since Jesus is the light of the world that keeps everyone in the light. Isn't classing people as in the 'dark' and having people in the 'light' avoiding those in the 'dark', maybe just in case it's contagious, just as bad as segregation and apartheid? Avoiding people because they're 'different' because we think we're better than them? Doesn't the bible teach us that we are <i>all</i> equal? Not one of us is 'more equal' than another, so how can we judge each other as if we are? Can't we just accept each other? The church is against racism, so why should it be for separation between 'light' and 'dark'? (apologies if I offended anyone/ got the complete wrong end of the stick. This post was written with completely good intentions!) I’m still with augustus here. I’m very confused about those in the ‘light’ and those in the ‘dark’. Surely we’re all in the ‘dark’, since we aren’t all perfect. Surely God is the only one in the light, as he is perfect. However, on the other hand, we are all surely in the light as Jesus is with us all and he loves us all. So since Jesus is the light of the world that keeps everyone in the light.

Isn’t classing people as in the ‘dark’ and having people in the ‘light’ avoiding those in the ‘dark’, maybe just in case it’s contagious, just as bad as segregation and apartheid? Avoiding people because they’re ‘different’ because we think we’re better than them? Doesn’t the bible teach us that we are all equal? Not one of us is ‘more equal’ than another, so how can we judge each other as if we are? Can’t we just accept each other? The church is against racism, so why should it be for separation between ‘light’ and ‘dark’?

(apologies if I offended anyone/ got the complete wrong end of the stick. This post was written with completely good intentions!)

]]> By: Judah http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-32776 Judah Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:59:07 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-32776 Having said that, we are all sinners and all of us "see through a glass darkly" at present. There is an impasse, but it is important to continue to love one another according to Christ's commandment. I must state the truth as I see it, just as you must do also, each of us appealing to the wisdom and teaching of the Holy Spirit to lead us according to His Will and strengthening us in obedience to our Lord and Saviour. This is already more of a comment than I had intended to make in the first place. Having said that, we are all sinners and all of us “see through a glass darkly” at present. There is an impasse, but it is important to continue to love one another according to Christ’s commandment. I must state the truth as I see it, just as you must do also, each of us appealing to the wisdom and teaching of the Holy Spirit to lead us according to His Will and strengthening us in obedience to our Lord and Saviour.

This is already more of a comment than I had intended to make in the first place.

]]> By: Judah http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-32766 Judah Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:45:30 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-32766 My conservative/tradition position is shared by a large proportion of the Anglican Communion who believe that the written Word of God is not to be revised according to current postmodern secular and political ideas. The great sadness is that the cost is too great for compromise between conservative/traditional and liberal/progressive positions. There is no "middle ground" left. These issues are already debated back and forth on forums elsewhere. There seems no point in arguing here as well. I doubt that I will convince you, nor you will convince me - which is simply representative of the impasse that exists within the Church. It is for each of us to prayerfully examine our own beliefs, testing them against Scripture and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and following whatever convictions arise from doing so. That way your questions will best be answered. It is not I who judges others, but the Word of God - as <i>dh</i> has commented before me. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=8&version=31&context=chapter" rel="nofollow">John 8:12</a> When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter" rel="nofollow">John 14: 15</a> [Jesus said] "If you love me, you will obey what I command... 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."... 23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. And a warning for all: <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=72&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter" rel="nofollow">Jude 1: 17</a> But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. My conservative/tradition position is shared by a large proportion of the Anglican Communion who believe that the written Word of God is not to be revised according to current postmodern secular and political ideas. The great sadness is that the cost is too great for compromise between conservative/traditional and liberal/progressive positions. There is no “middle ground” left. These issues are already debated back and forth on forums elsewhere. There seems no point in arguing here as well. I doubt that I will convince you, nor you will convince me – which is simply representative of the impasse that exists within the Church.

It is for each of us to prayerfully examine our own beliefs, testing them against Scripture and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and following whatever convictions arise from doing so. That way your questions will best be answered.

It is not I who judges others, but the Word of God – as dh has commented before me.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 14: 15 [Jesus said] “If you love me, you will obey what I command… 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”… 23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

And a warning for all:

Jude 1: 17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

]]> By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-32703 dh Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:38:36 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-32703 To accuse such as being "intolerant" or "exclusive" inlight of the Scripture on this seems no different. To accuse such as being “intolerant” or “exclusive” inlight of the Scripture on this seems no different.

]]> By: dh http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/comment-page-1/#comment-32702 dh Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:37:42 +0000 http://www.cartoonchurch.com/blog/2006/07/10/the-breakup-of-the-anglican-church/#comment-32702 It isn't myself calling people heretics but God's Word in light of the above mentioned. Also, the Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to call people "heretics" or "false prophets" when referencing those "who preach another Gospel than the one preached to you beforehand." It is beyond disagreement when sin is condoned as not being sin in light of AGAIN Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6. I have always said that if Jesus andthe adulterer were around today people would accuse Jesus of being "intolerant" or "exclusive" because He told her "go and sin no more". It isn’t myself calling people heretics but God’s Word in light of the above mentioned. Also, the Apostle Paul wasn’t afraid to call people “heretics” or “false prophets” when referencing those “who preach another Gospel than the one preached to you beforehand.” It is beyond disagreement when sin is condoned as not being sin in light of AGAIN Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6.

I have always said that if Jesus andthe adulterer were around today people would accuse Jesus of being “intolerant” or “exclusive” because He told her “go and sin no more”.

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