Comments on: Hell, etc

By: Augustus Meriwether

Augustus Meriwether — Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:56:21 +0000

I got the idea that hell was here and now from things like white phospherous burning away the skin and lungs of a child in Fallujah, say, or someone suffering the deepest inner torment long-term mental illness can bring, or some torturer drilling holes into the joints and head of someone with different political opinions or a mother watching the child in her arms die of malnutrition.

I didn’t say all of this life is hell, some of it is certainly heavenly; I said hell is here – meaning in these things. I believe these hellish things ought to motivate us more than the fear of personal eternal torment. That is ultimately a selfish motivation.

I’m sure God does not will these things to be happening in this world, and I’m sure he would not will them in the next where, unconstrained by the necessary limits of a faith relationship, his will or ‘kingdom’ will fully reign.

The debate about hell does not necessarily lead to vague agnosticism. Why should a refusal to believe in God as a torturer automatically mean I should not be able to hold a firm and clear belief in God as a non-torturer?

By: Sam

Sam — Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:28:55 +0000

There are several issues here which get mixed up. The debate about the nature of hell gets lots of press, and in the end we’re left with a vague agnosticism.

I think a better approach is to state the things we’re sure about:

Q: Will we stand before God to be judged?
A: Yes, and it will be fair and just.
Q: Should we fear that judgement?
A: Yes, because Jesus warned people.
Q: Is there a way to be “safe”?
A: Yes, it means taking refuge in God to escape God’s judgement (to use an OT image), which implies and includes repentance, and trusting in Christ.

By: Marty

Marty — Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:31:48 +0000

AM said: as a universalist, I would say the hell is clearly here – around us and in us: now.

Where did you get such an idea? That you were born into Hell? I don’t mean to sound incredulous, i’ve heard this idea before — but never so succintly put.

I mean, if this reality is actually “hell”, should i kill myself — because i can? I don’t think we can talk about Hell as anything but afterlife. There is here and now, and there is later than death. Claiming that this life is actually “hell” doesn’t seem helpful at all.

By: St

St — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:48:52 +0000

Interestingly, reading the later chapters of Luke in our church staff meeting this week, today we came to chapter 21. In V33 Jesus says, ‘…heaven and earth will pass away.’ Hadn’t noticed that before.

We accept the idea of a new heaven and a new earth but forget that somehow this Jesus says, at the end of Revelation, he will make ‘all things new’.

Whatever picture we have of hell, damnation or eternal suffering it will be renewed. The vision is for now, not the actual state of what will be then.

There’s enough hell on earth and Christians should be working to stop it. Augustus was right to point that out. Christian or not, let’s make it our lives’ work to stop other people’s lives being hell. Wouldn’t that be good?

By: lanark

lanark — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 14:32:06 +0000

This is a very interesting discussion and I wish I knew enough to contribute more. But as it is, although the bible is pretty vague about hell (or heaven, come to that), I really can’t reconcile it with universalism, appealing though that is. For example, someone asked earlier if Jesus really believed in hell. That reminded me of the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth” which I seem to recall being the most explicit description the bible gives of hell. And sure enough, in Luke 13 (thanks to BibleGateway) Jesus seems to be asked directly about universalism, and he seems to make clear that many will be left outside in a place where there’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Sorry, I just love that image).

But as for how I live with my belief even in such a vague notion of hell, well, as someone said earlier, I try and put it out of my mind. And it doesn’t seem to me to be very helpful in evangelism to have this vision of hell at the front of your mind. Maybe some people have been saved by people telling them “believe, or you’re going to a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth”, but I suspect they’re a minority.

By: Freedom Bound

Freedom Bound — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:56:56 +0000

It seems beyond me that a “God” firstly could chose to make a world where we could be led to turn from God by evil (like “Eve” being led away) and therefore potentially eternally destroy our relationship with God for ever. Then it is somehow our fault for doing it – although we may have been influenced by powers that God allowed to be there (the “serpent”)in the first place. Then somehow it’s all our fault, God is furious and we have to say sorry or he will punish us for ever……

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful it seems like the whole thing’s God’s fault……I await the apology!

Mercifully (!) I haven’t found this particular God in Jesus of Nazareth who seems rather too crazy about us all to be so….well….malicious.

Thanks God for Jesus.

By: Augustus Meriwether

Augustus Meriwether — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:02:16 +0000

Suzy, as a universalist, I would say the hell is clearly here – around us and in us: now. The perishing is around us and in our darkened souls apart from faith in Him. With our relationship with Him through faith now, we can find some liberation from the hellish aspects of life and the human condition and begin to lessen the hell of the world and increase his kingdom in the world. All of us will find full liberation from this ‘perishing’ by the limitless grace of God in Christ’s kingdom in the next life. That kingdom is here, we ‘tap in to it’ through faith during this life, in the next life we will all know Him. In knowing Him, as opposed to faithing Him, it is impossible for anyone to turn from him, for he is the fullness of love and life and the fulfillment of all our souls.

This is why we may only know him by faith in this life.

Again, just my personal, universalist reading of the available evidence.

By: Karin

Karin — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:39:48 +0000

..and probably from typing “thinks” instead of “things” ;0)

By: Karin

Karin — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:39:02 +0000

Suzy, I think Jesus died to save us from ourselves; from thinks like apathy, selfishness, anger and greed; and to help us to fulfill the potential God has given each of us.

By: Suzy

Suzy — Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:00:23 +0000

If there is no hell or separation from God, or some kind of alternative to eternal life with God … then what did Jesus die to save us from? If it doesn’t exist, then what is the point of any of it? John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Whatever it is that happens to unbelievers, it involves perishing. :-S I believe in Jesus. So therefore I feel that I must believe in some kind of hell, or something that is the opposite of eternal life.

Just my ponderings on the subject. Who knew that when I came across these fab cartoons, I’d get involved in a theological discussion! :-O