Hell, etc

44 Responses to “Hell, etc”

1. Tiffer says:
   

   I think hell is all about spin. Sometimes the spin is agreeable, sometimes it seems plain wrong. I’m not fond of the God in hell thing. Yes we are under wrath, but I don’t think that neccesarily means God has the pitchfork.

   The two main reasons I believe in hell are firstly that Jesus believed in hell, and secondly the alternative is universalism, and that’s just silly.

   But I don’t get it. Hopefully I won’t have to.

   Your comment on how can we continue living as normal if this is true is a very appropriate one. The small percentage of Christians who really let this sink in are the reason the church has spread as far as it has (that, and God of course)

   April 10th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
2. Michelle says:
   

   I have a big problem with the part that went: “[Hell] is just the sinner and God, full of wrath one-on-one forever.”
   The God I have come to know and love through the life, example and teaching of Jesus is one of compassion and mercy who has literally come hot-footing it into our lives to rescue us from all that we need rescuing from, and to give us gifts beyond imagining: life beyond death with the one who has known and loved us in a way we can only dream of, lives with purpose and meaning, love and community. It is almost Good Friday when we particularly remember all that Jesus suffered for us – I don’t think we can gloss over the fact that God must have been really serious and concerned to go through all that – and there must have been something really serious that he was providing our rescue from. Many people turn their backs on God and want to do things their own way – but still expect him to grab them beyond their last minute, when actually he has, through Jesus, already come and reached out a hand, shown the way to heaven, offered a plan of rescue, demonstrated his compassion, been full of mercy, given us the opportunity to have a new start. There’s no way that this God could be present in any form of hell – let alone doing a wrathful one-to-one for eternity – it’s not in his nature. But judgement – what’s so shocking about that concept – even we have a strong desire for justice; and to reach out and rescue us from an eternity that the God of compassion and mercy couldn’t bear for us, however you put it:(hell/separateness/isolation/a place where love isn’t) – this I can believe.

   April 10th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
3. Karin says:
   

   You believe it because you think you have to. You believe it because “clever” people tell you how to trick yourself into believing God is loving but has to send some people to hell. He has no choice, poor thing, and besides they deserve it. They rejected him. They didn’t believe in your particualr church’s three point plan for salvation so they must be wicked and hell is all they are fit for.

   Then, hopefully, you think about it and realise it doesn’t add up and you stop believing it.

   It’s a mixture of mis-information, emotional blackmail and a strange way of reasoning that is presented as God’s truth – and who can argue with God?

   April 10th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
4. Tired&Emotional says:
   

   I see hell as being the eternal separation of the individual from God. Nothing more and nothing less. That is how I read the New Testament preaching on it. Not necessarily a place but definitely a condition. What could be worse than seeing your whole life as having been futile?

   April 10th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
5. Chas says:
   

   Dave, I think that I know where you’re coming from. I don’t know where I stand, or what I believe, but I do know that if I try to believe in the kind of hell I’ve been taught about, a place where many suffer eternally, it just about destroys my ability to function. I, too, don’t understand how people can believe in hell, and continue to live any sort of normal life.

   And, no, it isn’t the happiest of topics …

   April 10th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
6. Tiffer says:
   

   I’m glad I haven’t been flamed for my comment! I find the honesty of the rest of you, and Dave, very refreshing, and perhaps I have to think more about this. Reading the Pentateuch helps me with the image of God which some people find difficult, wrathful but loving, but I agree that hell still isn’t a very simple concept.

   I like Revs Geralds response to this.

   April 10th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
7. Karin says:
   

   Tiffer, I don’t think Jesus did believe in hell. I certainly can’t see any evidence that he did. Some translations do encourage such a conclusion, but that is part of the spin IMO.

   And a wrathful but loving God is “double-think” IMO and just doesn’t wash.

   Once you understand the power of God’s love and the power that could be unleashed by human beings loving their neighbours as themselves – a power for good, not a form of manipulation – then you won’t think a loving God is fluffy, and you will no longer see the need for him to manipulate us with his wrath.

   That’s how I see it, anyway.

   April 10th, 2006 at 10:51 pm
8. Judah says:
   

   Michelle puts it very well for me too. But how I cope with it? – not easily. It concerns me greatly that anyone will end up in that state or place, but then, so many are exactly there already – living without God in their lives. Maybe they will be used to it, and maybe seeing the face of God will be far too much for them if they were not in such a place (since they have chosen to reject Him anyway). Perhaps the true Christian response is to know how awful it would be and set about bringing people to know Christ instead – the Great Commission. But if people choose to avoid and reject Him, God simply honours their decision and does not force Himself on them. To do so would be akin to “divine rape” and against the character of God. So where else do they go? I just have to accept and learn to live with the fact that people have the right to choose, and that nothing is ideal in this current flawed world. After all, I don’t much like the idea of having anything forced on me that is really against my will.
   Good question, Dave. Makes you think, doesn’t it?

   April 10th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
9. si smith says:
   

   i’m with you kiffer. i don’t think jesus believed in hell, at least not in the sense that we have come to understand the concept.

   ‘the fire that consumes’ by e e fudge is a book that carefully examines all the scriptural stuff regarding the concept of hell, and comes to the conclusion that actually, the idea that our souls are immortal and that hell is a place of eternal and never-ending torment is not supported in there. it’s a bit of a dry and academic read, but worth ploughing through if you want to get a better grasp on the subject…

   April 10th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
10. Tiffer says:
    

    Is Kiffer a cross between Karin and Tiffer?

    I think reading the Great Divorce really helped me with this as well. The way CS Lewis uses free will to explain eternity was very powerful for me. Karin thank you for addressing my comment, too much there to answer you here really.

    April 10th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
11. Neuron’s Cove » Hell and other concepts says:
    

    [...] links There’s a great discussion of Hell in the comment section of this post at The Cartoon Blog. I think my view of Hell is more like the commenter “T [...]

    April 11th, 2006 at 1:42 am
12. Paul says:
    

    Have you come across The Last Word and the Word After That by Brian McLaren? He explores the subject very well and, amongst other things, points out that much of the ‘eternal torment’ thinking actually stems from poetry such as Dante’s Inferno rather than the bible.

    But to get back to your actual point, very recently a friend suggested that most of us don’t actually believe that, even if we say we do.

    April 11th, 2006 at 8:25 am
13. St says:
    

    I understand you don’t like this post sitting at the top of your blog Dave but it is important. The idea that the church has only grown because some people took hell seriously is ridiculous. As if God loved the world so much he decided to inflict a world of permanent pain on any who didn’t love him back. My church is growing because we are, first and foremost, welcoming and hospitable.

    I’m sure there are people out there who wouldn’t recognise a metaphor if it bit them.

    Do read Brian McLaren’s final book in the ‘New Kind of Christian’ trilogy if you get a chance. It’s called ‘The Last Word and the Word After That’. It has the best theology of eternity I’ve ever read.

    Keep going.

    April 11th, 2006 at 8:30 am
14. Davo says:
    

    I’ve been thinking about this since I read this yesterday. What I’m wondering is what alternative is being proposed to the idea of hell?

    For example, sticking a knife into someone is a universally bad idea… unless, of course, you are a surgeon and the ‘someone’ has an appendix about to burst. Locking someone up is a bad thing, unless the alternatives are to leave their crime unpunished, and leave them free to commit the crime again.

    You really can’t judge how ‘bad’ something is outside of the context of the alternatives.

    To respond to a couple of other points, what definition would anyone like to give for a ‘Christian’ (just to be fair, I’ll throw one out – “someone who repents of their past sins (without, at this moment, getting into a detailed discussion about what is and isn’t sin) and trusts in God to forgive them”).

    And finally, the point about ‘looking forward to that day’, I think it is great to look forward to the day when all suffering, injustice and pain is wiped off this earth, is there something wrong with wanting that?

    April 11th, 2006 at 8:36 am
15. Tiffer says:
    

    I think one of the main problems with this kind of debate is that different people draw different conclusions to different possibilities. eg (and this is just plucked out of thin air honest) if we all saw a man slap a young girl on the face in Mcdonalds we would all draw different conclusions. Some would say he may have been disciplining the child, some would say it was definitely abuse, some might assume he was her father and others might assume not.

    Ok probably ignore that – it sounds silly. But I do feel that some of the more traditional views on hell are being followed through to incorrect conclusions here (which probably isn’t helped by the quotation in the original post, which isn’t very conventional IMO)

    eg the existance of a hell, whatever that might be, for wandering stars; this does not necessarily equate to God inflicting a world of permanent pain on any who don’t love him back. It may well for St, but it doesn’t for me and many others.
    That’s why my first comment was about spin.

    April 11th, 2006 at 9:13 am
16. Mark Berry says:
    

    Great post and comments… it is this honesty and openeness to the possibility of ignorance…”I don’t know and I know I don’t know and for the moment it is better to walk with God in ignorance than to get hung up about my not knowing and chuck it all in…” that bodes well and marks good leadership IMHO…

    For what its worth I think at the moment I am with Michelle… but I’m not sure where I’ll end up! (in terms of beliefs not in terms of Heaven or hell )

    April 11th, 2006 at 9:45 am
17. si smith says:
    

    [sorry tiffer!]

    i may be wrong here, and am happy to be corrected, but this is my take on it all…
    firstly, the idea that our souls are immortal is not a particularly biblical one. it’s something that we’ve adopted from other philosophical traditions which have defined western thought over the past couple of millenia… [greek? roman?] the bible teaches that we die, and are judged, and the righteous are resurrected to a life with god in heaven. ie god grants immortality to us after death [hopefully] – our souls do not automatically live forever. life after death is a gift from god.

    secondly, our philosophical tradition is dualistic – we instinctively believe that for everything there is an opposite. and so therefore if there is a heaven [and if our souls are immortal] then there must be a hell. again, i’m not sure that’s the biblical world-view. i don’t know much about first-century jewish theology, but i think jesus probably didn’t believe that…

    i believe that there is an eternal punishment for the wicked and the unjust, but ‘eternal’ in the sense that it is a once-and-for-all punishment, no coming back. it’s a final punishment [being "consumed in the fire"], and not the never-ending torment that we have come to think of hell as being.

    again, i’m no theologian, so i’m happy to be corrected here! but thisview of the afterlife and heaven and ‘hell’ makes a lot of sense for me…

    April 11th, 2006 at 11:09 am
18. Chris says:
    

    Could hell (simply) be non-existence? It’s something I have come across once or twice before from a couple of different speakers. It goes on and on and on (forever) and it also wraps up the idea of separation from God (cause you don’t exist any more). I’m pretty sure the people I heard this from have some kind of theology behind it, other than just trying to make it fit in to popular belief!

    April 11th, 2006 at 11:11 am
19. Tiffer says:
    

    Chris I’m sure it could be. The new testament word often translated as hell is sheol (or something) which means “the pit”, and can mean the pit where people never wake up.

    I think Si Smith is making a lot of sense, and I agree with him that eternity is not something necessarily promised to all.

    Jude 1:13 (bible tennis I know, I apologise) implies an eternity for those “lost to God”

    April 11th, 2006 at 11:31 am
20. joeturner says:
    

    As the ‘Gospel According to Peanuts’ put it, this is the fly in the ointment.

    What is the point of a never-ending punishment? You never get to learn the lesson. You never get a chance to make things right. In a lifetime’s experience, it would be horrific enough to be locked up for a long time, but in hell there isn’t even death as a release.

    Apart from which, it isn’t going to be very happy in heaven if we’re thinking of all those friends/relations who are suffering.

    I don’t agree with Tiffer – the alternative is not universalism. Maybe those who don’t get in (however God actually decides who is and isn’t in) ceases to exist…

    Joe

    April 11th, 2006 at 11:50 am
21. Dave says:
    

    Thanks for all the comments so far. Many excellent points.

    Apologies for the fact that some comments are moderated therefore delaying their addition to the conversation.

    It seems to me that no-one here really believes in the never-ending torment bit. Unless you haven’t come out and said it as such or I’m misreading you. I’ll contact the bloggers who I’ve linked to and see if either will respond.

    I wanted to replay to something Davo said:

    And finally, the point about ‘looking forward to that day’, I think it is great to look forward to the day when all suffering, injustice and pain is wiped off this earth, is there something wrong with wanting that?

    Now, this is fine, unless you believe that all ‘non-believers’ are going to be tormented for ever. In which case surely anyone with any compassion in themselves would want such a thing to be delayed as long as possible.

    April 11th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
22. Tiffer says:
    

    Dave, other peoples souls are not in our hands. We do not have the “cure of souls” (good anglican ordinand speaking here). Only God has.

    I believe that Jesus talks about the second coming happening after all people have been told about him. This is urgent – but it does go as far as this. The hobos who found the enemy camp empty back in Kings (I think) felt it was their duty to go back and tell their people – but when they ignored them (as I think they did, can’t be bothered to open a bible) there was nothing more they could do. A messengers only job is to give the message – we cannot and should not ram it down throats.

    Of course we feel a natural burden for our friends and relatives (regardless of where they are) but part of the Christian life is giving it all up to God.

    That all sounds horribly trite and patronising but it’s how I understand it.

    April 11th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
23. Rick says:
    

    This debate highlights the fact that we not receive enough teaching on this subject in our churches. When did you last hear a sermon on hell?

    To the people who have problems with the thought of a loving God banishing someone to eternal punishment I say ‘”As the heavens are higher than the earth [IE an un-measurable distance], so my ways are higher than your ways.” Says The LORD.’ Any God I can understand can’t be much of a deity in my opinion.

    Anyway, if you’re in a pit, someone drops a ladder down to you and you don’t use it – who’s to blame?

    But, in all seriousness, to address Dave’s comment on how you cope with beliving this: 99% of the time you pretend it doesn’t really exist. That is how you get through when your aethiest parents die. It is also the reason the church is shrinking. If we *really* believed what we say we do we would work and pray day-and-night to see people saved.

    Instead we sit here typing blogs to each other trying to justify our inaction.

    April 11th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
24. Rick says:
    

    The last line of the previous post was supposed to have something in it to indicate it was my own cynical nature breaking through and was directed as much at myself as anyone else.

    It was NOT supposed to sound insulting to anyone else. Please do not take offence, I apologise to anyone annoyed by it.

    April 11th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
25. Steve says:
    

    hi

    Sheol, in the hebrew bible, was primarily used simply as meaning the grave, not a place of life of afterlife, but simply death. It’s only as we move towards Jesus time that the debate begins to heat up about whether there is afterlife, and whether there is ressurection.

    In answer to the question, I don’t kow how peopl can either live as they do with that belief, or more to the point for me, why anyoen would choose to worship and revere a God who they believe intends to do that, let alogn celebrate eternal torture, as the quote indicates.

    Steve

    April 11th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
26. joeturner says:
    

    I guess it partly depends what the rope looks like. If it looks like a snake, there aren’t going to be many who hold on to it.

    I just hold onto the idea that God is just and that he is going to treat everyone properly. Only he really knows what is going on in the heart. Meanwhile, I try to leave all the heaven-hell stuff to him to sort out.

    April 11th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
27. Jerry Horne says:
    

    It’s amazing how much people don’t know about life. That’s just part of the game

    April 11th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
28. Augustus Meriwether says:
    

    Universalism is not silly (I realize you may be being tongue-in-cheek there). The idea of hell as a place of eternal punishment/torment, or even just an absence of God, is entirely INconsistant with a God who loves the world and each of us personally to the point where he would personally experience humiliation, torture and death to demonstrate that love. Universalism as a perfectly reasonable alternative to the nonesense of hell is quite in accordance with not only the particulars of scripture, but it’s broader thrust. It is clear to me that Universalism is MORE consistant with scripture than the concept of hell which we have constructed from a few proof texts that were not intended for that purpose. Universalism was a quite commonly held belief in the early church.

    I simply can’t bring myself to say that I could love a god who could put one person in such a predicament – even if that person were Stalin or Neilson or whoever. The idea that God should suggest we love him or he will torture us forever is preposterous. I have to wonder how someone could genuine claim to have ‘love’ for such an entity. In what way, then, are we created in his image?

    Still, everyone’s entitle to their opinion…

    April 11th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
29. Johann says:
    

    Dave, you have started a really good and honest discussion and I am glad it is still top of the blog (at 3.30pm).

    I think I am with Michelle & Judah. I wrestled with this problem just before my father died (an agnostic as far as I knew). After looking at many scriptures I could not escape the conclusion that Jesus did believe in Hell and it is real, as separation from God. However, during the days before & after my father died a verse from Deuteronomy was brought before me several times:
    “God… is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright & just is he.” Deut 32.4
    I felt I could trust him for my father utterly, and here I agree with Joeturner.

    “looking forward with eager anticipation to that day” – yes, when we think of seeing Jesus as he is, and his name being honoured by all at last; also of suffering ended, perhaps particularly that of Christians who are suffering so terribly for their faith throughout a large part of the world at present.

    April 11th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
30. Phil says:
    

    I like Neo’s theory that heaven and hell are the one and same place. Heaven is hell to those who are not ‘free’ and Heaven is heaven to those are ‘free’. I really think that if this is the case, those people who think the experience of heaven is hellish they are still loved by a God who created them. At the end of the day, as simplistic as this is: we’ll find out one day and no matter how we think we understand heaven and hell Biblically, theologically or philisophically, I think we’re all going to be in for a shock…a pleasant one I am sure!

    April 11th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
31. Simon says:
    

    I think hell is being stuck in a room with a bunch of Christians all blabbering on about their interpretation of hell… “Well, the God I’ve come to love through my relationship with Jesus…” “No the unbelievers will roast in God’s angry flames..” “My prefered theory is….” blah blah blah… Listen to yourselves. This just proves what an utter load of bull’s doo doo your whole belief is.

    If your god did exist, do you really think he intended you to spend days of your life wondering what hell actually is?

    Or do you think that’s all part of your worthy march towards understanding the mighty one?

    April 11th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
32. St says:
    

    Hey Simon, welcome to the room. You came in voluntarily again. Interested really?

    April 11th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
33. Liz says:
    

    I like the point joeturner made (at least I think it’s the point he was making!). It’s all very well saying that it’s just our job to spread the message, and not to worry about how it’s received, but how many people actually hear the message clearly? I don’t think I know anyone who would reject Jesus if they really saw him and how much he loved them, but that’s not what they see. Their view is clouded by the way the world has treated them, and they can’t see the truth, so can’t accept it. Is it just to condemn people to hell when they didn’t ever really get the chance to accept Jesus in the first place?

    April 11th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
34. Marty says:
    

    It seems to me, what little we know about hell comes from the same little we know about heaven, God, salvation, and the eternal afterlife. Jesus said, “Before Abraham was formed in the womb, I Am!” Then they tried to stone him…

    You can believe it’s all spin, but there’s really nothing else to go on: you can either take the Son of God’s word for it, or you can risk meeting Satan face to face. Spin or no spin, it ain’t a place you’re going to want to spend eternity.

    How do I live with this knowledge? God’s promise of redemption, paid for through the sacrifice of His lamb. Paint your doorpost with The Blood and tell your neighbors to do likewise. The Lord’s protection is free for the taking, to those who are not ashamed to obey Him.

    April 12th, 2006 at 2:36 am
35. Suzy says:
    

    If there is no hell or separation from God, or some kind of alternative to eternal life with God … then what did Jesus die to save us from? If it doesn’t exist, then what is the point of any of it? John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Whatever it is that happens to unbelievers, it involves perishing. :-S I believe in Jesus. So therefore I feel that I must believe in some kind of hell, or something that is the opposite of eternal life.

    Just my ponderings on the subject. Who knew that when I came across these fab cartoons, I’d get involved in a theological discussion! :-O

    April 12th, 2006 at 10:00 am
36. Karin says:
    

    Suzy, I think Jesus died to save us from ourselves; from thinks like apathy, selfishness, anger and greed; and to help us to fulfill the potential God has given each of us.

    April 12th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
37. Karin says:
    

    ..and probably from typing “thinks” instead of “things” ;0)

    April 12th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
38. Augustus Meriwether says:
    

    Suzy, as a universalist, I would say the hell is clearly here – around us and in us: now. The perishing is around us and in our darkened souls apart from faith in Him. With our relationship with Him through faith now, we can find some liberation from the hellish aspects of life and the human condition and begin to lessen the hell of the world and increase his kingdom in the world. All of us will find full liberation from this ‘perishing’ by the limitless grace of God in Christ’s kingdom in the next life. That kingdom is here, we ‘tap in to it’ through faith during this life, in the next life we will all know Him. In knowing Him, as opposed to faithing Him, it is impossible for anyone to turn from him, for he is the fullness of love and life and the fulfillment of all our souls.

    This is why we may only know him by faith in this life.

    Again, just my personal, universalist reading of the available evidence.

    April 12th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
39. Freedom Bound says:
    

    It seems beyond me that a “God” firstly could chose to make a world where we could be led to turn from God by evil (like “Eve” being led away) and therefore potentially eternally destroy our relationship with God for ever. Then it is somehow our fault for doing it – although we may have been influenced by powers that God allowed to be there (the “serpent”)in the first place. Then somehow it’s all our fault, God is furious and we have to say sorry or he will punish us for ever……

    If God is all-knowing and all-powerful it seems like the whole thing’s God’s fault……I await the apology!

    Mercifully (!) I haven’t found this particular God in Jesus of Nazareth who seems rather too crazy about us all to be so….well….malicious.

    Thanks God for Jesus.

    April 12th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
40. lanark says:
    

    This is a very interesting discussion and I wish I knew enough to contribute more. But as it is, although the bible is pretty vague about hell (or heaven, come to that), I really can’t reconcile it with universalism, appealing though that is. For example, someone asked earlier if Jesus really believed in hell. That reminded me of the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth” which I seem to recall being the most explicit description the bible gives of hell. And sure enough, in Luke 13 (thanks to BibleGateway) Jesus seems to be asked directly about universalism, and he seems to make clear that many will be left outside in a place where there’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Sorry, I just love that image).

    But as for how I live with my belief even in such a vague notion of hell, well, as someone said earlier, I try and put it out of my mind. And it doesn’t seem to me to be very helpful in evangelism to have this vision of hell at the front of your mind. Maybe some people have been saved by people telling them “believe, or you’re going to a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth”, but I suspect they’re a minority.

    April 12th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
41. St says:
    

    Interestingly, reading the later chapters of Luke in our church staff meeting this week, today we came to chapter 21. In V33 Jesus says, ‘…heaven and earth will pass away.’ Hadn’t noticed that before.

    We accept the idea of a new heaven and a new earth but forget that somehow this Jesus says, at the end of Revelation, he will make ‘all things new’.

    Whatever picture we have of hell, damnation or eternal suffering it will be renewed. The vision is for now, not the actual state of what will be then.

    There’s enough hell on earth and Christians should be working to stop it. Augustus was right to point that out. Christian or not, let’s make it our lives’ work to stop other people’s lives being hell. Wouldn’t that be good?

    April 12th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
42. Marty says:
    

    AM said: as a universalist, I would say the hell is clearly here – around us and in us: now.

    Where did you get such an idea? That you were born into Hell? I don’t mean to sound incredulous, i’ve heard this idea before — but never so succintly put.

    I mean, if this reality is actually “hell”, should i kill myself — because i can? I don’t think we can talk about Hell as anything but afterlife. There is here and now, and there is later than death. Claiming that this life is actually “hell” doesn’t seem helpful at all.

    April 13th, 2006 at 3:31 am
43. Sam says:
    

    There are several issues here which get mixed up. The debate about the nature of hell gets lots of press, and in the end we’re left with a vague agnosticism.

    I think a better approach is to state the things we’re sure about:

    Q: Will we stand before God to be judged?
    A: Yes, and it will be fair and just.
    Q: Should we fear that judgement?
    A: Yes, because Jesus warned people.
    Q: Is there a way to be “safe”?
    A: Yes, it means taking refuge in God to escape God’s judgement (to use an OT image), which implies and includes repentance, and trusting in Christ.

    April 13th, 2006 at 11:28 am
44. Augustus Meriwether says:
    

    I got the idea that hell was here and now from things like white phospherous burning away the skin and lungs of a child in Fallujah, say, or someone suffering the deepest inner torment long-term mental illness can bring, or some torturer drilling holes into the joints and head of someone with different political opinions or a mother watching the child in her arms die of malnutrition.

    I didn’t say all of this life is hell, some of it is certainly heavenly; I said hell is here – meaning in these things. I believe these hellish things ought to motivate us more than the fear of personal eternal torment. That is ultimately a selfish motivation.

    I’m sure God does not will these things to be happening in this world, and I’m sure he would not will them in the next where, unconstrained by the necessary limits of a faith relationship, his will or ‘kingdom’ will fully reign.

    The debate about hell does not necessarily lead to vague agnosticism. Why should a refusal to believe in God as a torturer automatically mean I should not be able to hold a firm and clear belief in God as a non-torturer?

    April 15th, 2006 at 7:56 am